Comic Book Collecting

[Hepcat]

And, the older books are pretty much all I care about anymore.... I want the stuff I grew up with and bought when I first started collecting.

Indeed! Nostalgia for the items of my youth is my own key driving factor as well when it comes to collecting.

I don't collect any comics from the last 20 years, and not much from the '80s/'90s....  New comics have no value to me....

I have two "stepping of" points for DC comics that are closely related in time. The first is when DC comics broke the fifty cent barrier in price and went to $0.60 with comics that went on sale in July 1981. That dovetails very neatly with the date that Carmine Infantino returned to illustrating one of my very favourite long-running titles, The Flash. Infantino returned with issue #296 which hit the newsstands in January 1981 and I hated his take on The Flash upon his return.

The second even clearer demarcation line for capping my collection is DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths series which had cover dates from April 1985 to March 1986.

And, those limited variant covers are the biggest con in the marketplace.

I agree! Multiple variant covers are just a gimmick on the part of comic publishers to con more money out of hardcore fans/true believers.

[Rex fury]

"Incidentally, I think Irving Novick's artwork on the above covers is simply lousy. But Novick was doing some good artwork for Batman by mid-1968 and I really liked his artwork in The Flash when he took over as the regular artist with issue #200 ...."

Hmm, I have to respectfully disagree with you about those Captain Storm covers. With the exception of issue 9, I think Novrik was producing artwork on par with many of the other DC staff artists at the time. Incidentally, a panel he drew for All American Men of War 89 (1962) was the basis for Roy Lichenstein's  painting "Whaam" in 1963. Another example of how  a comic draftsmen 's work was "borrowed " by Pop Artists in that time period.

Norvick had a long career in comics mostly jumping between bad advertising gigs and the comics publishers.  His early superhero work ( Pep, etc.) doesn't resemble his later war work, just as his later superhero work is different from that of the  DC war comics of the early 60's. I'm glad people appreciate an artist even as their styles change with age, assignments and time periods.

RF

[John Pertwee]

When Superman died, the market was caught off guard. Speculators became the new normal. I was so pleased to see some of them take a bath on the Return of Superman. I know people that ordered 10 or 20 copies of each version, with the dreams of selling them immediately for hundreds of dollars. Now they are in .25 cent bins everywhere.
Unfortunately, some retailers never recovered from that either. When these bottom feeders realized these issues were so overprinted, they failed to buy what they ordered from the shops. A friend of mine was selling comics at the time and this drove him out of the new comic game completely. 

[Hepcat]

And many of those retailers bought a hundred or more extra copies for their own store's inventory. I too was very pleased to see the speculators take a bath on the Death of Superman scam (and on all the new me-too variant X-Men titles). Speculators at the time were also buying entire cases of newly issued baseball cards because all those cards from the fifties and sixties had appreciated so much in price (ignoring the detail that the surviving ones had gone up in price because the rest had been destroyed thus creating a shortage).This is precisely the kind of speculative frenzy (buying something not because you like it but because everybody "knows" that the price must go up) that's the dictionary definition of a bubble.

And these days I'm always bewildered by the mindset of the speculators piling into the comics with a tie to the hot new flick about to be released. I mean are they thinking that the demand for said comic will take another quantum leap upward from its already inflated level? That's why I'm completely unwilling to buy any comic whose price has been grotesquely boosted by movie hype.

Moreover excess demand can very quickly evaporate due to changing fashions/market tastes. What can't be increased over time is supply. That's why I keep saying that when it comes to collectibles, I'm willing to pay up for short supply. No way I'm willing to pay up for high demand though.

[horrorhunter]

When Superman died, the market was caught off guard. Speculators became the new normal. I was so pleased to see some of them take a bath on the Return of Superman. I know people that ordered 10 or 20 copies of each version, with the dreams of selling them immediately for hundreds of dollars. Now they are in .25 cent bins everywhere.
Unfortunately, some retailers never recovered from that either. When these bottom feeders realized these issues were so overprinted, they failed to buy what they ordered from the shops. A friend of mine was selling comics at the time and this drove him out of the new comic game completely.

This and similar speculating debacles by "investors" who had never cared about comics until they thought they could make a buck were what led to the '90s comic book market crash. I remember people setting up at small cons in the Chattanooga area charging ridiculously high prices for certain Valiant issues and in some cases selling them at those prices. Then, the bottom dropped out when enough people couldn't move overprinted issues because most prospective buyers already had them (multiples in some cases). The overall mindset after the crash was that comics in general were overpriced which was a gross overreaction with the herd mentality. It was really the new comics (new in the '90s) that were overprinted to the extent that demand shrank to nil. The older books ('70s and older) still had the same amount of copies in the marketplace, which weren't that many compared to the great number of overprinted '90s issues. That was the time to buy your back issues because prices hit new lows. I bought several books in the '90s after the crash at real bargains, and I wish I had bought many more.

I mentioned Valiant comics above as an example of falsely inflated value for a time, but I meant no slight against the Valiant books themselves. I still have the early Valiant books having bought them when they first came out back in the '90s, and I hold those books in high regard. The Valiant Universe was fun back then with great stories. Titles like X-O Manowar, Magnus Robot Fighter, Rai, and Harbinger are great reads. They just got swallowed up in the speculating frenzy that caused the market crash, and many languished in quarter bins for years afterward. They were the same books that sold at one point for $20-$100 each, and seemingly overnight they could be bought for a fraction of those prices. Their values have rebounded somewhat in recent years but they can probably still be bought cheaper than their inflated '90s prices at their height. Just another example of the crazy comic market, and another warning not to overpay for the latest "hot" book. Great comics can still be bought at reasonable prices if you buy what you enjoy, and you don't chase keys and the books most other collectors are rabid for to brag about in their latest You Tube video.

[horrorhunter]

I'm willing to pay up for short supply. No way I'm willing to pay up for high demand though.

I agree with this to a point, but it's important to remember that demand is always going to dictate available supply. And, after years of certain issues (or any collectible for that matter) being difficult to obtain at going rates then the prices rise to what buyers will pay. It's what drives the increased prices on collectibles over time. Perceived value is real value.

Before the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide debuted in 1971 comics in general were cheap, even Golden Age books. But, with an annual price guide keeping up with values the upward surge began. Collectors became aware that certain books had a certain value so some buyers were willing to pay a little more to get books they really wanted to complete runs...and a little more...and so on, year after year. It was a snowball effect and here we are half a century later with the prices we have to deal with. And, for the last several years it's even more organized with eBay "Sold" prices instantly researchable by everyone. And, before that there were multiple price guides like Wizard magazine. So values for comics from the Golden Age are pretty well set in stone (in the public mind), and Silver Age books might fluctuate a little more but probably not the ones commonly thought of as keys. Bronze Age books fluctuate up and down somewhat and aren't as "value set" as older books, but they are much more "value set" than Modern books. The price fluctuation in general is in the upward direction much more-so than downward. That's just the underlying greed that drives any market.

[Hepcat]

Incidentally, a panel he(Irv Novick) drew for All American Men of War 89 (1962) was the basis for Roy Lichenstein's  painting "Whaam" in 1963. Another example of how  a comic draftsmen 's work was "borrowed " by Pop Artists in that time period.

Yes. Here it is:





Now I like the fact that Roy Lichenstein's pop art creations were not only a tribute to comic art but brought much needed attention to comics as an art form in their own right. What burns my butt though is that Irv Novick and the other comic artists whose work Lichenstein plagiarized received not a cent in royalties or compensation of any sort.

[Rex fury]

Indeed! The issue of lost revenue for many comic artists is staggering. The treatment  of Siegel and Shuster at DC, Simon and Kirby at Timely , etc. make me cringe. While the industry has made some attempts to remedy this it's still pretty clear who the winners are in those old "work for hire" contracts. I encourage young aspiring comic creators to read this article for a dose of reality about the industry:

https://www.pipelinecomics.com/seriously-dont-be-a-comic-book-artist-just-dont/

RF

[marsattacks666]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/starloggers.com/2020/04/18/the-current-state-and-future-of-comic-books-part-i/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.screengeek.net/2020/06/26/captain-america-civil-war-cancel-culture/amp/

[horrorhunter]

The comic book market is really two different markets: 1- New Comics, 2- Back Issues

Most collectors buy both new issues and back issues, but a few like myself are only interested in the back issues. There will always be a back issue market with millions of comics in existence. If new comics stopped being published it would force many comic shops to close, but the back issue market would still be there. I believe there will always be demand for back issues due to the popularity of the characters. These characters are ingrained in the psyche of the public, and this is constantly reinforced by the many movies and TV shows which will continue to be made. Also, it's likely some new comic book stories would continue to be published probably in the trade paperback format.

The comic book market will continue whether new issues are being published or not. The new issue market seems unsustainable as it stands, but we'll see if Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, and the other publishers finally give up at some point. I'm after the issues I still need from the Bronze Age and earlier (and a few from the '80s/'90s), so it wouldn't dampen my enjoyment of the hobby at all if new books stopped coming out.

Would anyone else care to discuss the future of the new comic book market, or the back issue market?

[Hepcat]

I like the pre-hero Atlas/Marvels very much. I just don't have many of them. Prices on those books have gotten ridiculous in the last few years in much the same way as Pre-Code Horror comics.

Given the relative supply, do you really think the prices of pre-hero Marvels are "ridiculous" compared with the far more plentiful post-hero Marvels?

If I were wealthy I'd have them all (well...I'm not sure even being wealthy would make that possible now, but I'd have as many as I could comfortably afford).

I'm with you. I think the pre-hero Marvels are boss cool and I'd love to have an extensive collection of those issues. But what I like even more than the pre-hero Marvels is the pre-pre-hero Marvel/Atlas comics. I already have a few but eventually I'd like to acquire many more.

First of all I love the comics Atlas published in the forties based on the Terrytoon characters including Mighty Mouse, Gandy Goose, Sourpuss, Dinky Duck and Heckle & Jeckle:







(Not mine.)

Here as well are scans from my collection of Atlas Jungle comics (including the cover artist where known):

Joe Maneely



Syd Shores



The Lorna, the Jungle Girl title featured fabulous artwork with issue #6 being perhaps my very favourite:

Russ Heath

(Not mine.)

Here as well are some scans of Atlas Westerns from my collection:

John Severin



Joe Maneely



Carl Burgos



Joe Maneely



The Atlas Westerns were also much grittier than those published by DC during the fifties. My very favourite may be Wyatt Earp 3:

Joe Maneely

(Not mine.)

Both the Atlas Western and the Atlas War comics were very nicely illustrated by some of my favourite artists from fifties including Joe Maneely, John Severin, Russ Heath and Bill Everett. Here's a scan of my only Atlas War comic:

Joe Maneely



Atlas continued to publish War comics that were gritty to beat hell even post-Comic Code. Two of my very favourites actually hit newsstands in 1959:

Jack Kirby

(Not mine.)

Jack Kirby

(Not mine.)

So I'll let Marvel Zombies go goo-goo over and pay ridiculous prices for relatively common comics such as Fantastic Four 1, Amazing Fantasy 15 and Avengers 1 & 4. I'm just happy that the much scarcer pre-pre-hero Marvels are still semi-affordable.

[horrorhunter]

Given the relative supply, do you really think the prices of pre-hero Marvels are "ridiculous" compared with the far more plentiful post-hero Marvels?

Compared to what they commonly sold for decades ago the prices are ridiculous.

The supply of a collectible by itself doesn't matter regarding value. It's the demand that dictates value. Relative supply enters into it when the demand forces a scarcity of a given collectible in the marketplace. It doesn't matter how scarce something is if nobody wants it. That's why key Marvel Superhero issues sell for much more than similarly aged keys from other publishers. The popularity of the MCU has sent the demand for those books through the roof, and they are relatively plentiful in the marketplace. It's just that so many more people want them now the prices have gotten insanely expensive. I just make this work in my favor by buying books that mean a lot to me personally and I avoid buying the "hot" books now. I'm just glad I already have most of the issues that I want anyway, so I don't care what FF #48, or Captain America #100 trades for since I already have them.

[Hepcat]

The supply of a collectible by itself doesn't matter regarding value. It's the demand that dictates value.

What?!!! Have you not even taken a beginner's course in Economics? Supply and demand are co-equal variables when it comes to price determination as the following chart from almost the first page of any Economics textbook shows:



In general supply is just as important a determinant of price as is demand.

When it comes to back issues of comics and other collectibles though, it's actually supply that's the constraining variable. Quite simply the supply of a given comic is very price inelastic. The quantity of the comic in existence doesn't react upward in response to price increases. In fact the supply of any comic trends inexorably downward as time passes. Demand for a comic though is very price elastic (the higher the price the lower the quantity demanded). Demand of course can and does fluctuate wildly in response to other factors (fashions, fads, etc.). Supply meanwhile remains unimpacted by any of the above.

Buyer beware therefore is the operative advice when the price of a collectible leaps up sharply in response to a surge in demand. Such surges in demand are all too often ephemeral.

It doesn't matter how scarce something is if nobody wants it.

True. But let me then give you an example of the opposite extreme, i.e. when supply is limitless. Air is in tremendous demand. We all want it because we need it to survive even a couple of minutes. Yet the price of air is zero because the supply is effectively limitless.

If you go to zero demand, you will of course get a zero price. But similarly if you go to near limitless supply, you also get a price of zero.

[horrorhunter]

What?!!! Have you not even taken a beginner's course in Economics?

I won't be engaging in a tedious Economics debate.

You seem to be aggravated that Marvel Superhero keys sell for much more than pre-hero Marvel/Atlas issues because the Superhero key issues are more plentiful. I was simply trying to make the point that demand s scarcity concerning comic book values. It doesn't matter much what an individual or small group thinks Marvel Superhero key issues should sell for. All that matters is what the buyers and sellers that collectively form the comic book marketplace think they should sell for, and those values are the product of decades of trading. Those fair market values fluctuate some, but are usually ever on the increase regarding older books. In other words you won't be finding a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 in a quarter box.

I'm still not sure why you have this deep hatred of Marvel Superhero comics though. You seem to take offense when anything positive is mentioned about Marvel Superhero books and their popularity and current values. I understand that nobody likes everything and we are also defined by our dislikes as well as what we like. Tolerance for differing viewpoints, or the lack thereof, also defines us.

[Hepcat]

I won't be engaging in a tedious Economics debate.

But you yourself asked other posters to weigh in on the comic market!

Would anyone else care to discuss the future of the new comic book market, or the back issue market?

If you want to discuss markets, well that's Economics.

Moreover I don't think Economics is tedious anyway. It's a combination of Mathematics and Psychology (essentially everyone wants to sell for a higher price and everyone wants to buy for a lower price). As such I think it's fascinating. In fact if I had to do it all again, I'd major in Economics at university.

I was simply trying to make the point that demand s scarcity concerning comic book values.

And my main point was that supply is the bedrock factor when it comes to collectibles. Quite simply while the quantity being offered can fluctuate somewhat, the total potential supply is still finite, very finite, for these items. Meanwhile demand is unstable. Theoretically there's no reason it can't drop to zero. It has happened in other areas of collectibles over the last few centuries including within the twentieth century, e.g. demand for old stamps was nowhere near as high in 2001 as it was in 1901.

You seem to be aggravated that Marvel Superhero keys sell for much more than pre-hero Marvel/Atlas issues because the Superhero key issues are more plentiful.

Not so. I specifically said that I was very happy that pre-pre-hero Marvels sold for much less than hero Marvels:

So I'll let Marvel Zombies go goo-goo over and pay ridiculous prices for relatively common comics such as Fantastic Four 1, Amazing Fantasy 15 and Avengers 1 & 4. I'm just happy that the much scarcer pre-pre-hero Marvels are still semi-affordable.

I'm still not sure why you have this deep hatred of Marvel Superhero comics though.

Not so. I've actually expressed my admiration for Marvel Superhero comics several times in this thread:

I didn't say Marvel comics weren't good though. Due to Stan Lee's genius, they were very good indeed. I said only that Silver Age Marvel comics have always seemed expensive to me relative to their comparatively plentiful supply.

Eventually I'd like to acquire copies of some of the Marvel comics I remember reading or at least seeing as a kid, but unfortunately these include Fantastic Four 4 (Submariner intro) 7, 26 & 29, Amazing Spider-Man 7, 9, 11, 15, 20 & Annual 1 and Tales of Suspense 57 (Hawkeye intro) which are all cripplingly expensive.

I enjoyed the Marvel comics I chanced to read, e.g. Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men, but the DC comics were a higher priority and I only had so much money for all my competing interests, i.e. comics, cards, model kits, so I didn't actually buy any Marvel comics as a kid.

You seem to take offense when anything positive is mentioned about Marvel Superhero books and their popularity and current values. I understand that nobody likes everything and we are also defined by our dislikes as well as what we like. Tolerance for differing viewpoints, or the lack thereof, also defines us.

Not so. I've actually said positive things about Marvel comics myself.

Moreover I can actually turn that statement of yours right around. I've never challenged you when you've expressed disinterest in any of the comics I really like. You though all too often become annoyed when I express more admiration for non-Marvel comics than for Marvel Superhero comics. It's as if we must all have the same pecking order for the comics that we like with Marvel Superhero comics being right on top. I don't understand why my preferences bother you.