Comic Book Collecting

[Rex fury]

On an entirely different note, anyone else interested in Horror Hounds new project documenting the history of horror movies adopted into comic books?
Here's a link about the project:

https://www.horrorhound.com/News/Details/326

Also, the latest Alter Ego has an article on Harvey Janes. He was an author who worked for Fawcett publications and wrote the Mechanix Illustrated feature on The Creature From The Black Lagoon.

Good stuff😊
RF

[horrorhunter]

But you yourself asked other posters to weigh in on the comic market!

If you want to discuss markets, well that's Economics.

Moreover I don't think Economics is tedious anyway. It's a combination of Mathematics and Psychology (essentially everyone wants to sell for a higher price and everyone wants to buy for a lower price). As such I think it's fascinating. In fact if I had to do it all again, I'd major in Economics at university.

And my main point was that supply is the bedrock factor when it comes to collectibles. Quite simply while the quantity being offered can fluctuate somewhat, the total potential supply is still finite, very finite, for these items. Meanwhile demand is unstable. Theoretically there's no reason it can't drop to zero. It has happened in other areas of collectibles over the last few centuries including within the twentieth century, e.g. demand for old stamps was nowhere near as high in 2001 as it was in 1901.

Not so. I specifically said that I was very happy that pre-pre-hero Marvels sold for much less than hero Marvels:

Not so. I've actually expressed my admiration for Marvel Superhero comics several times in this thread:

Not so. I've actually said positive things about Marvel comics myself.

Moreover I can actually turn that statement of yours right around. I've never challenged you when you've expressed disinterest in any of the comics I really like. You though all too often become annoyed when I express more admiration for non-Marvel comics than for Marvel Superhero comics. It's as if we must all have the same pecking order for the comics that we like with Marvel Superhero comics being right on top. I don't understand why my preferences bother you.

Just to clarify, I don't put Marvel Superhero comics at the top of my "pecking order". I favor Horror comics and monster magazines over the other genres. But, I like and collect a variety of different comics and related items. If I mistook your comments as a hatred of Marvel Superhero books then I stand corrected. The point I was making about demand outweighing supply regarding comic book prices is a fact: it's proven by the very thing we were discussing before about pre-hero Marvels being less expensive and more scarce than the later Marvel Superhero issues, as well as too many other common examples to go over here.

If I had any idea that an invitation to discuss the comic book market would open up this onslaught of unpleasantness I would have never mentioned it.

Eventually it's best to just let a perceived difference of opinion go. That's what I'm doing now...letting it go.

[marsattacks666]

Here a few comicbooks I picked up this week.

[Hepcat]

If I had any idea that an invitation to discuss the comic book market would open up this onslaught of unpleasantness I would have never mentioned it.

I agree. I don't see any reason for unpleasantness when it comes to discussing comics or the present or future market for comics.

Would anyone else care to discuss the future of the new comic book market, or the back issue market?

On a general note, the market fundamentals are the same for any collectible. In order for a collectible to increase in price, an increase in demand or a decrease in supply must take place. For almost all 20th century collectibles that were initially marketed to kids such as cards, comics and toys, a near total destruction factor took place as said items were mauled through rough usage and then tossed into the garbage. This caused a slow and steady increase in the price of the items that survived as a core group of collectors (many of whom became more prosperous financially over time) competed for an ever dwindling supply. When the phenomenon of increasing prices for "old" kid stuff such as baseball cards and comic magazines began to be ever more widely reported in the press in the late sixties, this prompted not only hoarding but an actual increase in demand as speculators/investors were attracted into the market.

This phenomenon spiralled upward through the seventies and eighties. With all the publicity the circa 1910 American Tobacco Company Honus Wagner and the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle cards as well as Action Comics 1, Detective Comics 27, Fantastic Four 1and Amazing Fantasy 15 received, the thinking was that hoarding the latest hot card(much touted rookies) or comic(dead Superman, X-Whatever #1) would result in similar appreciation over the years. Speculators in the early nineties were buying whole cases of new card releases and hundreds of copies of the latest #1 comic. But of course hoarding by a hugely augmented number of buyers ensured that a surplus of items would prevail since the number of potential collectors is always finite. When speculators got frustrated and tried to unload, the "market" collapsed.

But card and comic companies were shrewd. By the mid-nineties these companies had taken to releasing and marketing "instant" collectibles to an eager marketplace. The card and comic companies started producing instant "scarcities" to continue tempting speculators/investors (who may already have been burned when they bought up/hoarded product that had been grossly overproduced). The card companies started producing serially numbered (and often signed) cards and the comic companies began producing "limited" variant covers for "special" issues. But!!! There are two tremendous differences between today and yesteryear back in say 1960:

1. There was only one card for each player in the 1960 Topps baseball card set with the exception of there being one extra card for the All-Star selections:



So at most there were two cards for star players but the All-Star card wasn't the "real" thing. These days though in any given year there are perhaps dozens of different cards produced by various different companies for all the star players. And now these cards are all competing for the interest/dollars of collectors!

Similarly, in 1960 there was only one Green Lantern 1 published followed by a #2 and a #3 at two months intervals:







So the present situation with respect to the availability of competing products in the marketplace is very different than that which prevailed sixty years ago. There's now no shortage of "substitute" products. There are many different Sid Crosbie cards from which collectors can choose even in any given year.

2. Basically none of the cards and comics bought these days are tossed out. This is key since it was the destruction factor that created today's shortage of supply when it comes to vintage collectibles. And that's why today's instant "scarce" collector's items haven't done well in the marketplace.

So what's in the cards (so to speak) for the comic market in the future?

Well for one thing the demographics look really bleak. Granted I thought that Golden Age comics would start to soften in price back in the nineties because the kids who had been buying them in the forties were at an age when many started doing some "estate planning", i.e. selling their collections before they died because they were afraid that their spouses and/or kids would just pitch the stuff or sell it for a song as "worthless" junk. Well I was wrong because it seems that almost all hardcore comic collectors back then were baby boomers drawn into collecting by Stan Lee's Marvel comics in the sixties or to a much lesser extent the offerings of Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger over at DC.

But these baby boomers are now at an age where they may be doing some estate planning. Not only does this mean that large quantities of older comics could now be supplied to the marketplace, the demand from these older boomers will be lost.

Granted, superhero movies have given a tremendous boost to the prices of certain "key" issues with Black Panther's origin in Fantastic Four 52 being the most notorious example. But!!! What's pushed up the price of these newfangled key issues is demand from speculators which is by nature short-term. These speculators buy only to sell at a profit (they hope). How many new collectors have been drawn into comics by these movies? Looking at history, the tremendously successful Batman TV series in the sixties did next to nothing to bring new long-term Batman collectors into the fold. In fact it seemed to turn off many existing Batman comic fans who didn't like the character being portrayed as a buffoon.Therefore I suspect that the movies turn very few present day kids into collectors.

Moreover with the emergence of dedicated comic shops, comics had largely disappeared from convenience store and drugstore newsstands by about 1985. The net result was that fewer and fewer kids grew up reading and buying comics and now the vast majority of new comics are bought by adult collectors. So who's coming along to replace these adult collectors as they get to estate planning age?

Finally I've also noted that young kids these days are all about nothing but video games and don't seem to have the collecting gene. That's why the words "Free inside!" and "Collect!" seem to have disappeared from cereal boxes, jelly dessert boxes, potato chip bags, etc. So while these kids may love the new superhero flicks, I suspect that few if any are being drawn into hardcore collecting, i.e. trying to complete runs by acquiring back issues.

So the question is who's going to replace ageing boomers in the comic collector marketplace? I can't see many kids evolving into collectors. This bodes very poorly for future comic prices.

Truthfully though I don't care. Why should I care about the "health" of the comic market? I'm not a dealer. I'm not into flipping items in my collection with a view to making a profit.

[horrorhunter]

Here a few comicbooks I picked up this week.

Good books, mars.

Is the EC you bought an original or a reprint from the '90s?

[marsattacks666]

Good books, mars.

Is the EC you bought an original or a reprint from the '90s?

Reprint from the 90s, H.H.

[horrorhunter]

So the question is who's going to replace ageing boomers in the comic collector marketplace? I can't see many kids evolving into collectors. This bodes very poorly for future comic prices.

Truthfully though I don't care. Why should I care about the "health" of the comic market? I'm not a dealer. I'm not into flipping items in my collection with a view to making a profit.

The back issue hobby will eventually fizzle out but I'm certain it will be around at least as long as I am. Beyond my lifespan I don't have a horse in that race. On the other hand I think the publication of new comics is likely to expire in a few short years, which doesn't affect me since I don't collect Modern comics.

I'm somewhat interested in the health of the back issue market because I plan to deal in collectibles as supplementary income at some point. I'll be maintaining my collection and only selling duplicates. Collecting is something I plan to enjoy even more after retirement with the extra time available. Hopefully I can make enough extra to keep adding to my collection and finish most of those runs. Also, buying collections is an excellent way to add needed issues to your own at a great price, and selling the books you don't want or already have.

Mainly I just like to discuss the comic book market because I think it's interesting and fun. Since the mid '70s when I first started collecting the values comics were bought and sold for have been a big part of the hobby. My favorite things about the hobby are reading the books, appreciating the art, and learning the history of favorite characters and the history of the hobby in general. The importance of the market is secondary to those aspects for me, but it's still part of the hobby.

[horrorhunter]

Reprint from the 90s, H.H.

Those EC reprints are great. I wish I had bought all of those when they first came out. I'm still working on finishing the reprint runs. I have a handful of original ECs but I pretty much gave up on being able to finish those original titles...too pricey.

[marsattacks666]

Those EC reprints are great. I wish I had bought all of those when they first came out. I'm still working on finishing the reprint runs. I have a handful of original ECs but I pretty much gave up on being able to finish those original titles...too pricey.

Definitely,  pricey.

Honestly.  I am glad these comicbooks were reprinted and offered in the early 90s. The original Tales from the Crypt, Haunt of Fear and Vault of Horror were expensive even in the 80s and 90s.

[Hepcat]

The focus of most of the early dedicated comic collectors in the fifties was completing runs of pre-code EC comics.

Here's a good TV clip on what comic collecting was like back in 1970:

Toronto Comic Shop (1970)

[skully]

Very, very good observations with both Horrorhunter and Hepcat here,  with both supply and demand being the factors with collecting and prices.  The only thing I could add here is for Horrorhunter.  I liked what he mentioned about actually dealing with collectibles in the future after retirement, for supplemental income.  I have been an "on and off" actual dealer at Renningers close by here since about 1980,  but I have frequented the market and others in the same area since the mid 70's.  My last effort with a large booth at Renningers was after I retired in 2014.  I always liked the "hands on" approach with being there and actually meeting people that collected items,  but unfortunately quickly found out that the times for dealing like this had vastly changed.  Items that I saw actually sell on line for x amount of dollars were actually almost like a bad joke trying to sell in a place like Renningers or even in some of the many co-ops in the area.  People always praised my booth for actually being the best in the market with all the eye-appeal with it,  but it was really tough going trying to sell anything near current market value,  the times have changed that arena with rock-bottom bargain hunters and the like.   While there is nothing wrong with that mentality because we ALL like a bargain, it just didn't work out.  In my opinion the only people making any money were the owners of the building collecting the weekly rent from all the dealers there.  If I were set up for it I would opt to only sell on line, so many more people to see your items and a world of difference with selling something as long as you're honest and straightforward up front right from the start.

[horrorhunter]

If I were set up for it I would opt to only sell on line, so many more people to see your items and a world of difference with selling something as long as you're honest and straightforward up front right from the start.

I plan to sell mostly online as well. Maybe I'll occasionally do a small con within easy driving distance mostly for the buying potential. I sold some collectibles on eBay a few years ago so I know the routine and how to present good listings. I also have good feedback built up.

I have been an "on and off" actual dealer at Renningers close by here since about 1980,  but I have frequented the market and others in the same area since the mid 70's.  My last effort with a large booth at Renningers was after I retired in 2014.  I always liked the "hands on" approach with being there and actually meeting people that collected items,  but unfortunately quickly found out that the times for dealing like this had vastly changed.  Items that I saw actually sell on line for x amount of dollars were actually almost like a bad joke trying to sell in a place like Renningers or even in some of the many co-ops in the area.  People always praised my booth for actually being the best in the market with all the eye-appeal with it,  but it was really tough going trying to sell anything near current market value,  the times have changed that arena with rock-bottom bargain hunters and the like.   While there is nothing wrong with that mentality because we ALL like a bargain, it just didn't work out.

I've noticed this change too. It seems that in the last few years in-person trading has been more of a buyer's market while online trading has been more of a seller's market. Even with the shipping cost and eBay fees/taxes collectibles seem to sell for top dollar on eBay and through dealer's websites, and it's tough to sell them for top dollar at cons, toy shows, and flea markets. A lot of buyers either have health issues, or family commitments, or work too many hours, or whatever, to go out to in-person selling venues. So, they will pay a premium to sit at home and shop online for their collectibles.

There aren't many conventions in my neck of the woods so even before I was forced to stay home all the time due to family commitments I shopped for collectibles the only way I could- online. At some point my situation will change and I can get back out there in the world and dig up good deals. I'm looking forward to it.

[skully]

Horrorhunter,  agreed 100% here.  My problem was I remembered the Renningers Antique market with some of my earlier booth's when the market was really good, and you could actually sell there and make at least some money, I had quite the rude awakening with that last effort though,  I really spent some money with getting some real nice display cases, rug, shelves, lighting and everything else.  I made it as eye-appealing as I possibly could,  that part did pay off for me with bringing in a lot of people but it just turned into a nostalgia moment for most with people saying how they remembered this or that, or just long "gab" sessions with memories.  While I really did enjoy meeting the people, it wasn't paying the rent, or much less anything else.  I stuck it out for a year and a half,  and I'm told of people still asking about me up there.  I wish there were more shows in my area too,  because I always liked the thrill of the hunt atmosphere with collecting.  I really miss the absolutely terrific Atlantic City antique show that was held twice a year,  nothing could compare to the total vastness with actual miles in rows with all the different collectibles from dealers from all over the U.S. and other countries too,  it was a real workout to see the whole thing,  I usually went Saturday and Sunday to see it all.  It was just utterly amazing!!  Also, the great Allentown toy show has really seemed to go downhill also,  nothing like it used to be, along with the Macungie show here near my area.  I still frequent Renningers, along with all the co-ops near me,  but anything serious with a piece I might be looking for is usually now found online with some real stiff competition of late.  I fear these markets will be heading for yet another shut-down in the near future again.

[Hepcat]

While actively buying whatever DC superhero comics I could find on the stands from mid-1963 until the latter months of 1964, I was also trading for whatever back issues of Justice League of America, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Atom and Wonder Woman I could find.

I was quite successful in hunting down and trading for back issues of the Justice League of America....

I had very little success in tracking down back issues of any of the above titles other than Justice League of America and The Flash. I managed to trade for only two issues of Green Lantern although one of those was Green Lantern 11 which had been pivotal in drawing me into the DC hero universe early in 1962:







I also recall gazing longingly at a house ad for Green Lantern 12 in one of the Justice League comics for which I'd traded but I never succeeded in tracking down a copy as a kid:





Here though is a scan of the one from my present day collection:





I also succeeded in trading for a copy of The Atom 1:





I was delighted to obtain that issue since I remembered having admired the house ad for The Atom 1 in the spring of 1962:

[horrorhunter]

Swamp Thing #s 1 & 2 from my collection:





I bought those from Bob Overstreet during a visit to his home in 1976. #1 was $5, and #2 was $3, which were the "Mint" Guide prices back then. Neither are actually in mint of course, but they are nice copies. #1 is in the VF range and #2 is probably around NM. Overstreet used to hit all the newsstands and spinner racks in our area and buy up all the copies of anything he thought he could resell later at a profit. That was great for him, but not so great for kids who found those issues cleaned out when they went to buy them. Anyway, it was an okay visit and I picked up those two much wanted issues plus a Howard The Duck #1 (yep, he bought up all the HTD #1s as well  ). But, considering what those books sell for currently I'm certainly glad I bought them back then.

When I first started collecting in 1975 I quickly realized that Bernie Wrightson was/is my favorite artist. I was hunting down anything Wrightson, especially those first 10 issues of Swamp Thing (and HOS 92 which I bought a couple of years later). Some of the most fun I ever had collecting was going to used book stores, flea markets, and yard sales every weekend hunting back issues of Swamp Thing. Once in awhile I'd get lucky and find a Wrightson issue, then I would examine that thing for hours. The Redondo issues were good, but he had the impossible task of filling Wrightson's shoes. Another book I always hunted was the fanzine Badtime Stories by Wrightson. I remembered seeing the ads for Badtime Stories in the old Monster Times issues and I energetically hunted a copy every time I went to a con or anywhere comics might be found. I wouldn't actually see Badtime Stories until the early 2000s when I finally bought a copy from an eBay seller for $20. It's in FN and it's been a part of my collection since. That's still a hard book to find.