Wanna Talk Westerns?

[Scatter]

Watched Hang 'Em High and The Good, The Bad and The Ugly today.

Awesome flicks!!

[The Spangler]

 I have to give a shout out for Tim Holt, Hollywood's true fastest draw!  Besides the great TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE, his B flicks he put out for RKO in the 40's and 50's were always a cut above the many other B "oaters" other studio's were releasing, IMO. 

[Wolf Man]

Tombstone has a cult following and fans of westerns often like the film well enough but when it first hit critics hated it saying that the film sent westerns straight back to boot hill.  I have mixed feelings about this film.  It has moments and Val Kilmer's Doc Holiday but has way too many cliche's and cheese.  

Open Range seemed to me to be the most realistic "how it really was" type films to come along which is also why I like Unforgiven.  

Folks like westerns for different reasons which accounts for those liking different styles.  I have a tough time watching some of the older classics because they are so "NOT" how it really was.  But then again, that is why some people simply love the films, they are more fantasy than reality so good escapist fare.  

With Westerns like Deadwood, Open Range, Lonesome Dove, and Unforgiven we get a raw grittyness and a sense of watching events unfold as they really might have true to life.  The recent Alamo film was like that.  From a Historical stand point the film was like watching the events with a camera placed in the middle of the true events unfolding.  From an exciting rousing shoot em up, full of patriotism unrealistic Hollywood production it falls flat and the film failed miserably.  Yet it still stands as the best Alamo film ever made and could be shown to school kids as here you go, this is how it happened.  

As for actors portraying Cowboys, I have no problem with who you have listed but would add Kevin Costner (although most might disagree with this one) and Tommy Lee Jones who as Woodrow Call has created one of the most copied by reenactors and cowboy enthusiasts characters in history and Clint Eastwood would beat out most on your list and would rival John Wayne as a Western Icon.  

My point is, when it comes to westerns, there are those in group A like myself that want to watch the most realistic type films that show how it really was and those in group B that like westerns for action, excitement, escapist fare where the good guy wears a white hat, always wins and gets the girl in the end.  There is good reason to like the films made that way so it is not a knock but when you watch a film like Bad Company you see what most fans of westerns would call boring but this is how it was.  Life was not pretty, it was harsh mean and full of the unexpected.  In Bad Company, when the settler offers up his wife to the group of guys to make some money out on an empty prairie you get the sense this is perhaps the only way for the couple to make money and purchase supplies to eat.  

I also think it is almost imperative to seperate Classic Westerns from modern ones just due to the difference in style between the unrealistic but rousing fun, to the realistic and perhaps less exciting.  There are fans of either or both and all has merit.  

[hammerfan]

It was Clint's 80th b-day yesterday.  TCM showed the Spaghetti western trilogy along with a slew of classic Eastwood movies. 

[Dr.Teufel Geist]

I think the "Long Riders" is a very good and close to accurate portrayal of the James-Younger gang's gritty outlaw lifestyle.
I also like that they used real brothers to play the parts..

Kevin Costner makes a good cowboy as well as he makes a good Robin Hood (yeh, I was being sarcastic there)

I like Costner,but not as a Cowboy or Robin Hood.

I also like "Barbarosa"
"Blood on the moon"(1948)
"Hondo"
"The Wild Bunch"(1969)

[Phantom Stranger]

Ahhh, westerns. I LOVE THEM. My favorite genre (along with horror) I could watch them all day..and on occasion I have, and I could talk about them for hours (and I have,,much to the dismay of some friends) Here are my favorite movies:

1."The Good The Bad and The Ugly"- Clint Eastwood
2. "The Searchers"- John Wayne
3."The Magnificent Seven"-Yul Brynner
4."For A Few Dollars More"-Eastwood
5.Rio Bravo" -Wayne
6."Winchester "73"-James Stewart
7."Silverado" -Scott Glenn
8." Lonesome Dove"- Robert Duvall
9."High Plains Drifter"- Eastwood
10."3:10 to Yuma"- Glen Ford (the original film, but the remake is great)
11."Tombstone"- Kurt Russell
12. "The Quick and The Dead"-Sharon Stone
13."Red River" -Wayne
14."The Outlaw Josey Wales"- Eastwood
15."The Man From Laramie"- James Stewart

And just for the heck of it. here's my favorite western TV shows:

1. The Wild Wild West
2.The Adventures Of Brisco County Jr.
3.The Lone Ranger
4. Wagon Train
5. The High Chaparral
6. Maverick
7.Have Gun, Will Travel
8. How The West Was Won
9.Wanted: Dead Or Alive
10. The Westerner
--

[Phantom Stranger]

Today's western movie:

"Shoot Out At Medicine Bend" (1957)
-Randolph Scott. Angie Dickinson, James Garner

Plot:
The brother of a cavalry officer is killed in an Indian raid, because he was sold faulty ammunition and could not defend himself. His brother and two fellow soldiers go after the crooks who sold the bad ammo.

Phantom's Review: While this is a minor film in Scott's career it is still a fun movie, with plenty of action. I enjoyed it.

[Phantom Stranger]

Today's Movie:

"All Hell Broke Loose" (2009)
-David Carradine

Plot: IMDB
After serving his county in the Civil War as a skilled sharpshooter, Will Drayton moved West in search of employment using his shooting skills. He ends up with the wrong type of people as a deadly assassin.

Phantom's Review: Oh my God. what an awful film. Total amateur hour. Bad acting, bad action and a lame plot. The late David Carradine looks bored. Avoid at all cost.

[Dr.Teufel Geist]

Did David Carradine ever play in anything worth watching?
He did make a bad guy co-star in some decent action movies...
But, as the main star of a movie, can anyone name one, that was worth watching??
The Carradine's make good co-stars, just not Lead Stars...

imo, one of his best co-starring movies was "The Long Riders", in which he portrays Cole Younger.

Some might say "Kill Bill" was decent,but I dont know why they would..
or some may say the tv series "KungFu" was a decent show, it would have been if Hollywood would have accepted Bruce Lee..
It was Bruce's concept, his series, but Hollywood wanted an American to play the part of a Chinese Monk....really?...really?...
way to go Hollywood...

[Wolf Man]

He played a decent bad guy in Lone Wolf Mcquad if you would classify that as a good film.  I did not like the knife fight in Long Riders because it looked like David Carradine was using his Kung Fu moves trying to act all graceful and stuff. 

Phantom Stranger, you might find it interesting that I visited the set of High Chaparral back in the day when it was in its original airing.  It was the house and it was inside a sound stage so it looked like a house in a barn.  Pretty cool though.  I also met Festus from Gunsmoke at a rodeo.  Plus, get this, I still have my first place ribbon from a rodeo I was in for a calf roping event.  I also won a first place award for most authentic cooking at a reenactment of different time periods for my Texas Ranger camp.  This was a highly coveted award and I beat out some medieval cooks who spent days preparing a goose with special spices.  There were some very angry women when they learned I won the contest with my southwestern chilli and homemade jerky and salsa.  You just can't beat texmex food. 

So what do people consider to be the deciding factors of a good western?  I don't mean the run of the mill stuff like "good acting" or "good story"  I mean the specifics. 

I liked Unforgiven because when we first see Clint's character he looks like this broken down old farmer, then we learn of his past and how even his own men were afraid of him.  At the end we finally see why he was such a bad a**.  Yet, he was a loyal friend, a devoted husband even though his wife had passed, a good father and treated other kindly unless he was killing them.  I liked his dual nature.  The other characters were all great in their roles as well.  A bad a** sheriff although he ended up almost being the bad guy.  A writer groupie.  The young kid out to make a name for himself then realizing it is not all its cracked up to be.  The whores out for revenge or justice depending on point of view.  The barkeep, the two cowboys, the gun mans friend Morgan Freeman and the Englishman stirring things up on the fourth of July.  What also makes this a great film is the realism and authenticity.  All the little details that make it seem down to earth. 

With Open Range it is different.  This was about a cattle drive, free grazing (which I had never heard of) and the rich cattle baron wanting it all.  What was great about this film was the tough character Charlie Waite.  We learn of his past and how he was a decent man trying to put it all behind him.  When the gunfight erupts we see what a dangerous man he was and his dual nature of struggling with himself trying "not" to be the bad gunman but we see that side of him.  The boss was a great character caring about his men and treating all the townfolk very decent making friends wherever he went because of his kindness.  I also love the way the town rallies although they did not want any part of the fight. 

Both films offer gritty realism and authentic costumes, firearms and realistic situations.  Both offer great cinematic moments of stark meanness while offering the contrast of carring tenderness.  For me, a film could have a great story and good acting but if the costumes are not authentic, if the weapons aren't right then the film just won't cut it.  On the flip side, if a film has great costumes and weapons but is slight on story and acting then it won't cut it.  Appaloosa comes to mind.  All the details were good but the film suffered from some cliche's and overall not great acting.  Most films will have some moments.  Appaloosa has the duel at the end and I liked Viggo's character overall.  Hated the botoxed face of the cheating girlfriend and could not stand her character at all.  Detracted from the whole film.  The opening gunfight looked amateur and too staged and unrealistic.  There were many things in the film that were far fetched. 

So for me, as important as the story and acting are so are the authenticity of the details, even in the background.  What made Lonesome Dove so perfect was all those little details and stark realism.  This is why the classic westerns are so difficult for me to watch.  I can enjoy The Cowboys and Little Big Man among others that are more recent made classics but if you go too far back when all the details are hokey and Hollywood then the film fails to catch my attention. 

[Dr.Teufel Geist]

define classic westerns...do you mean the stuff from the 50s and less?
if so, then it was about children going to the movies and watching their hero beat up the badguy and win the girl.
kids didnt care for detail, they just liked all the excitement of the gunplay,indian attacks, horse chases,etc...


I like El Dorado(late 60s)it had some good characters in it,(James Caan) Mississippi-raised by a gambler,used a knife instead of gun,but..later on used a sawed off shotgun(very cool)
The drunken sheriff-(Robert Mitchum) who used to be something great, then it went all downhill for him, to the point that he was just a drunkard that people laughed at,but his best friend helped him regain his (cool status), and he regained his respect from others.

Who can forget "Bull", the wiley old coot deputy who stuck by the Sheriff's side, a very interesting character(cant remember his name)

Now, the only reason..I didnt mention John Wayne in this, is because his character reminded me of most his characters.
I'm not dissing the Duke, cause I love John Wayne movies,but his character in El Dorado, didnt have any spark imo.

[Wolf Man]

It is difficult to define a classic.  I can't really say how old a classic would be without making a list of Westerns by year they were made and then determine which ones were pardon the expression but kind of hokey and not authentic.  There are many westerns I have not seen yet either.  El Dorado being one of them.  I may have seen this long ago but I have no memory of it so most likely not.  I go more by the way the film was made and if there was an attempt to make the film authentic and realistic rather than when the film was made.  I can say though that most of the western TV shows, although entertaining were as Hollywood as they come and not realistic at all from an authentic detail point of view. 

[Dr.Teufel Geist]

yeh, kinda like "The true story of Jesse James", which has been airing on the EncWestern channel and FMC alot.
It is no where close to the true story, and there are others out there from the late 40s and mid 50s, that have some "Hollywood"version
of the real outlaws...

What movie do you think was the closest to these outlaws/lawmen/etc..

1.The Earp/Clanton war?
2.Billy the kid?
3.Wild Bill Hickock?
4.General Custer?
5.James/Younger gang?
-----------------------------

[Wicked Lester]

I'm chiming in here way late. I love westerns. All kinds. The high end serious stuff to the 30's/40's B stuff like Hopalong Cassidy which is just plain fun. Also anything by Larry McMurtry. So what is everyone's take on the movie The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford? I've seen it 3 or 4 times in the last year and thought it was pretty good. Not sure how accurate it was but portrayed Jesse much differently than in most movies. As for the BIG westerns of the 50's with BIG names,for the most part I can't watch them for too long. If I want that route I'll read 40's/50's Western Comic reprints.

[Wolf Man]

I really loved Young Guns take on Billy the Kid and felt that Emilio Esteves was channeling Billy's real character.  The movie is partially acurate in some parts and has at least all the name characters in both films. 

I only recently saw the Assasination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.  Whew, long title.  It was good, very realistic but a very disturbing picture of Jesse and could be very acurate, I don't know.  The film Frank and Jesse starring Bill Paxton and Rob Lowe respectively was also a good portrayal.  I know they liked to portray Frank and Jesse as some sort of Old West Robin Hoods but I think that was just because people were frustrated at being cheated out of land and homes by the money people.  There was much more deception going on back then than in todays world of foreclosures.  People wanted heros who stood up and hurt the money men but I am not certain that Frank and Jesse weren't just two bit criminals and more bloodthirsty than often portrayed. 

As for Wild Bill, hard to say.  Keith Carradine got it right in Deadwood I am most sure.  Jeff Bridges did not do bad in Wild Bill but not sure how authentic the story was.  Been a long time since I saw that movie. 

As for the Earp's/Clanton thing I have yet to see a film that portrays that acurately.  Tombstone had the gunfight down pretty close.  There were seventeen shots fired in that fight and with the exception of Doc Holiday firing a two barrel shotgun three times the number is closer in Tombstone than Wyatt Earp.  However, Wyatt Earp portrayed the mood and disposition better.  Wyatt was portrayed in Tombstone as kind of a wimp, avoid bloodshed and all that kind of stuff.  I think Wyatt was spoiling for a fight as much as any of them and that was conveyed much better in Wyatt Earp.  The gunfight in Wyatt Earp though was pretty awful.  I don't think either film really gets the story right.  So that one is hard to call. 

As for General Custer, Little Big Man does the best.  It showed Custer for who he was, an ambitious ego maniac that would not hang a man who wanted to kill him because his miserable life was not worth the reversal of a Custer decision.  Pretty much sums up the man.  I thought it a piece of irony that Richard Mulligan also put on the Custer costume for his role in Teachers.  He too I thought was channeling the true nature of Custer. 

In The Assasination of Jesse James blah blah blah, you can see lots of she-bangs.  These are half tent half wooden structures.  They have some in Pale Rider too.  Well, I build one years ago for my wall tent.  It was portable and could be set up rather easily the way I designed it.  Eventually the wood began to rot and I cut it up with a chain saw and burned it for firewood.  I may build another though one day.  I always liked my she-bang.  You see some at Civil War reenactments so when you are watching the films see if you can spot one.