Comic Book Collecting

[horrorhunter]

This is pretty unbelievable...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/silver-surfer-3-8-5/203273382532?hash=item2f5409aa84:g:mqEAAOSwFsxgIdtv



Currently up to $214.50 with 48 Bids (8 hours + to go) and 67 Watchers, but clearly pictured is the Fantasy Masterpieces REPRINT of Silver Surfer #3. The Seller is either a dumb crook or clueless, and the Bidders are bidding big bucks on a $10 reprint. The winner is the loser in this mess. Get educated before you drop serious money. 

This reprint sold for $375

It looks like this book was Relisted "or one like it" according to eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/silver-surfer-3-8-5-Reprint-Rare/203281070969?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Notice it's now identified as "Reprint" in the Listing Title. I found the old listing that sold for $375 and it was identified as "Sold" instead of "Ended" by eBay, so it looks like the buyer (victim) got stuck with the sale, and maybe eBay stepped in to enforce the new listing be identified as "Reprint"? The best way to not get burned is just to learn about what you're buying before you buy it. You can't count on getting bailed out of being victimized by a con. Anyway, if these postings about this crook's listing(s) have anything to do with fouling up his attempts to steal from the ignorant then so much the better. It's doubtful since not a lot of people peruse UMA anymore, especially regarding comic books, but it is possible. 

[horrorhunter]

CGC Horror Story Proves Grades Mean Nothing

https://youtu.be/dmJ63VJX5VI

The first line above is the video title.

Personally, I don't think they mean "nothing", but I do think the actual grade could vary by up to two grade numbers or possibly more in some instances, and that just covers errors made in the actual grading process (which isn't transparent BTW). Add in the possibility that the grade may have dropped over time by the book having moved around slightly in the case or simple paper deterioration, and the actual grade of the book could vary greatly from the grade number on the slab. Also, the Micro Chamber paper that CGC used inside the book becomes destructive to the paper after a decade or so and has to be removed which means cracking out the book and destroying the slab.

I'll enjoy my books unhindered by the efforts of 3rd party grading companies, and use the chunk of money I would have paid them to add more to my collection.

[Mike...In 3-D!]

Personally, I don't think they mean "nothing", but I do think the actual grade could vary by up to two grade numbers or possibly more in some instances, and that just covers errors made in the actual grading process (which isn't transparent BTW).

When I worked at the shop we would send books in all the time. On a couple of occasions we got a book back that was graded a full number/number and a half below what we thought. We carefully inspected book before sending them out to ensure we were only sending quality stuff in. One time, the big boss was so baffled by the grade he cracked it open and re-submitted it with our next batch. It came back a full grade number higher than it did the first time.

CGC is/was great from a seller's perspective, because for the most part fans treated those grades like gospel.

[horrorhunter]

Here's a CGC (8.0) Marvel Spotlight #5 that I posted 3 pages back. I'm posting it again as an example of CGC grading inaccuracy.



Anyone familiar with Overstreet grading guidelines would hardly characterize this copy as VF. It looks more like a FN (6.0) copy to me. Granted, the black cover shows imperfections more easily, but that just more clearly points out the grade range this copy should fall into. It's my understanding that CGC charges a percentage of a book's current fair market value to grade more expensive comics, so it's in their best interest to grade it higher and charge more. Couple that with their grading system that is never disclosed and having no transparency whatsoever and it's obvious the plethora of opportunities that present themselves to profitably fudge the grade at the expense of consistency and integrity.

I haven't dealt with CGC directly but from what I've picked up through the last few years watching YT videos and examining CGC grading examples in eBay listing pictures it seems that CGC has steadily been getting more lax with their grading standards. They seemingly were more strict years ago, even close to Overstreet standards, and they've loosened up more and more as time went on. Who knows how many more thousands of dollars they've made by fudging a grade here or there, more and more as time progressed.

BTW, a VF (8.0) comic usually sells for 2-3 times what a FN (6.0) comic does in the current market for expensive keys like the Marvel Spotlight #5 posted above. That one sold for 2 grand. A couple of grade points means a big difference in money for the grading company, the seller, and the buyer. I've noticed huge differences in BIN prices for the same books in the same grade on eBay. My Comic Shop listed several copies of House Of Secrets #92 in CGC (6.0) over the last few months. One was $2,500, another was around half that, another was around 2/3 that, you get the idea. They all had a "6.0" on the slab but the dealer knew the detailed photos would show the books to be quite different in appearance. The slabbed grade number is at best just a guideline, not the absolute accurate grade of that copy. I wouldn't want to risk losing hundreds of dollars in value dealing with all that chaos.

The only way I would buy an expensive book these days is if I could examine it in person and go over every page thoroughly to check for completeness, restoration, and probable grade using Overstreet standards. I wouldn't drop over a couple hundred dollars on a book without doing this. I guess my ultra conservative approach doesn't fit into the chaotic state of the market these days. That's okay, though, since I already have most of the books I want. I'd hate to start out collecting in this meat-grinder collecting environment nowadays. New collectors are taken advantage of routinely by unscrupulous sellers and 3rd party grading companies.

[Rex fury]

One reason you see price fluctuations on books sold through My Comic Shop is that some are sold on consignment. I've dealt with them for many years and have been happy with their services for non slabbed books ( I collect the comics not plastic slabs). The comics Ive purchased from them have been fairly graded. Granted I've only been collecting since 1965, but I think I have a pretty good eye when judging a grade.
RF

[horrorhunter]

My Comic Shop grades fairly accurately, and probably as close to Overstreet as any big dealer. I don't deal with them much because I can beat their prices by shopping around and being patient. They are a good alternative if you don't mind spending top dollar to finish a run quick. Yeah, they do consignments which accounts for some price fluctuation, but they also vary their prices on slabbed comics due to way the books present. Most sellers vary prices due to the appearance of the books as well as the grade number on the slab owing to grading inconsistencies and occasionally post-slabbing drops in grade (sometimes the book is loose in the well and incurs minor damage, or the slab is damaged and it affects the book, or the paper deteriorates because the slabbed book wasn't stored properly).

I usually avoid buying slabbed books because they are more expensive than unslabbed books (I don't use the silly buzz-term "raw"). I'm not opposed to buying a slabbed book if it's the same price as an unslabbed book but that usually isn't the case. As soon as I buy it I crack it out unless I'm going to resell it. I don't keep slabs in my collection. They take up a lot of extra space and that's problematic when you have thousands of books. Plastic slabs have no place in my collection. I just want the books.

[Mike Scott]

Looks like the buyer found out it was a reprint and canceled the deal on that Silver Surfer. Seller is now selling it as a reprint.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/silver-surfer-3-8-5-Reprint-Rare/203281070969?hash=item2f547efb79:g:mqEAAOSwFsxgIdtv

[The Cantankerous Collector]

I've sent books to CGC many years ago and was disappointed with a couple of the grades as I thought the books would have graded higher. I do believe it's a big scam but it seems the scam has become the standard.

[John Pertwee]

Right now, slabbed books sell for more because the "grade" isn't up for debate. It doesn't matter if the book grades at an 8 but is really a 7 or lower. That number is all that matters to most speculators. People are buying Silver Surfer 3 and Amazing Spiderman Annual 16 right now because of WandaVision. As much as a laugh at these people buying at the height of speculation, I know those prices won't drop any time soon.

[horrorhunter]

...the scam has become the standard.

Sadly, yes. Most of the videos I see from members of the You Tube Comic Book Community feature collectors who seemingly feel like their books aren't validated until they get slabbed. The books are exactly the same as before, but those people can't wait to line the pockets of professional grading companies (usually CGC) so they can show off that slab and somehow feel like their comic is suddenly legitimized. 

[horrorhunter]

Right now, slabbed books sell for more because the "grade" isn't up for debate. It doesn't matter if the book grades at an 8 but is really a 7 or lower. That number is all that matters to most speculators.

The slabbed grade isn't up for debate to comic collecting sheeple, but if you don't run with the unquestioning herd the slab grade number gets heavily scrutinized. I understand what you're referring to though. Many collectors these days seem to feel there is a need for 3rd party pro grading no matter how sloppy, expensive, and slow, that service is. I'm still astounded at the way slabbing has taken over the hobby in two decades. No doubt so many people buying from eBay sellers and other online sources have only reinforced the slabbers' grip on the hobby. It does make books more sellable to collectors who can't examine them in person before buying. Then you have the sort who think their book isn't legit to brag about unless it's slabbed. Professional grading companies have made ridiculous amounts of money taking advantage of this situation, with no end in sight. It's become ingrained deeply into the hobby for so many collectors. They can't wait to submit a stack of books and throw a wad of money at graders who are probably laughing all the way to the bank.

People are buying Silver Surfer 3 and Amazing Spiderman Annual 16 right now because of WandaVision. As much as a laugh at these people buying at the height of speculation, I know those prices won't drop any time soon.

That's the weird part, the market doesn't correct the way it did for decades. Comics started being collected in the '60s, and heavily collected in the '70s. Even back then there were price spikes on books that would settle back down in time. Generally the newer the book the quicker it would cool off. Comics overall would rise in value well ahead of inflation, but it was a gradual rise. Now we're seeing certain books go up by multiples instead of percentage points, and though some have dropped back down they mostly stay much more expensive than before they spiked... then the next round of increases happen, and you're left with prices 5-10 times what they were on some books just 10-20 years ago. I started collecting in 1975 and for 35 years a collector could sell off some of his books and buy them back in 5 years without spending an obscene amount of money. Generally speaking, that doesn't apply anymore. Now, you could sell a key book like FF48 in mid grade for a grand and think you made out like a bandit, but if you want that book back in a few years you might have to spend 5 grand to get it. As this situation shakes down it looks like some books will be out of reach for most collectors, more and more of them as time goes on. There is no telling when these crazy price increases will finally end. The current market environment will probably persist for the next decade at least.

[horrorhunter]

The latest lunacy is the ridiculous prices paid for Marvel trading cards from the '90s. Here's one YT vid (of many):

https://youtu.be/Qn0EckCynRs

Professional card grading company PSA seems to be the main reason for this exploding recently. Certain Marvel cards in PSA 10 started selling for stupid money and a lot of people started paying high prices for sealed boxes of the cards to submit to PSA hoping for high grades to flip. Chaos and hype ensues. 

I have complete sets of all of these Marvel sets in binders in my basement, including the holograms and other chase cards. I put them directly into the binder 9 pocket sleeves when I bought them so many probably are very high grade. I plan to keep them and enjoy them just as I have for the last 3 decades. This crazy market situation is entertaining to keep up with though.

It seems like more and more areas of collecting are being affected by this madness of ridiculously high prices being paid for professionally graded (slabbed) high grade collectibles. Where will it end...who knows? I'm just sitting on the sidelines enjoying my collection watching the lunacy unfold. 

I posted this here instead of in the trading card thread because the comic book characters are driving this latest mania.

[John Pertwee]

I now look at the comic book community as a bubble. Buying and selling is now a game of hot potato. Buying high now is likely to end in tears for people that hold onto them thinking it is a retirement fund. Eventually that bubble will burst and people will be left holding the bag on some "high dollar" investments that have suddenly dropped below what they paid for them.

Most ten to twenty year old kids today don't care about comic books. Without a healthy wave of new customers, the hobby will decline.

[horrorhunter]

I find it annoying and somewhat depressing that so many comic collectors today are so focused on slabs, grades, prices, investment potential, modern cover variants/ratios, that they seem to have lost the true enjoyment of collecting and reading comics. Now it's more about the hype and media appearances and MONEY than just following the characters and talking to other fans about the actual stories and art. At least by hanging onto my collection I can revisit my favorite characters' adventures anytime I wish, and read the books. Collecting was a lot of fun back in the '70s and '80s. My stuff let's me ride the Wayback Machine at will.

[The Cantankerous Collector]

Right now, slabbed books sell for more because the "grade" isn't up for debate. It doesn't matter if the book grades at an 8 but is really a 7 or lower. That number is all that matters to most speculators. People are buying Silver Surfer 3 and Amazing Spiderman Annual 16 right now because of WandaVision. As much as a laugh at these people buying at the height of speculation, I know those prices won't drop any time soon.

What's the connection to Wanda Vision And ASM Ann #16?" I'm sure I have that in my files somewhere.