Elwar Button Mystery

[Toy Ranch]

Occam's Razor to the rescue! 

That does make a great deal of sense, Bob. 

[Mike Scott]

Warren made a set of Munsters buttons in 1965, and the art, style, and size strongly resembles these Elwar Monster buttons, but they are clearly marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO. on the rim.

Then why not put Warren Pub. on these, too?

And we know for sure they made a "run" of monster buttons in '65, as documented in the FJA photo.

Not sure how that photo documents them being made by Warren?

Soooooooo.......my vote is that all of this "Famous Monsters" stuff...the FMS record, the different size buttons, the paperbacks, etc., were all produced by...yes...FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND.

The paperbacks were published by Paperback Library, but the material in them was licensed from Warren. No mystery about those.

[Monster Bob]

Warren definately made Munsters buttons in 1965, which are marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO

The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved (or was behind it from the beginning) in their manufacture. That's what it documents- the year of those #1 buttons, which is an important fact in the investigation.

The first run are unmarked. Who knows why? Maybe then got a CAD letter and suddenly  stopped making them, then years later bought the rights to the characters. Of course,  they then would then have to submit artwork for approval to Universal, so they had some schmo artist repaint the same six characters for the new buttons. They aren't exactly masterpieces, and any decent artist could blow out the set of button art in a day or two.

[Richard]

Warren definately made Munsters buttons in 1965, which are marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO

The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved (or was behind it from the beginning) in their manufacture. That's what it documents- the year of those #1 buttons, which is an important fact in the investigation.

The first run are unmarked. Who knows why? Maybe then got a CAD letter and suddenly  stopped making them, then years later bought the rights to the characters. Of course,  they then would then have to submit artwork for approval to Universal, so they had some schmo artist repaint the same six characters for the new buttons. They aren't exactly masterpieces, and any decent artist could blow out the set of button art in a day or two.

Elwar being a subsidiary of Warren? It still works in my possibilities. Doesn't matter who's company it is. Nothing else has shown up for Elwar so it could be a "front" subsidiary. Since there is a possiblity that the 2nd series large buttons were made years later, losing the original artwork and having to recreate it works too, as I've said.

A post back, Bob, you talked about the Lowell Dracula artwork. We know its on the first button variation. I didn't follow what that had to do with the timeline & genesis of the buttons. Did you imply that if Warren produced the 1st buttons and owned the artwork (the company too) that created the FMS record, that they would borrow the Lowell artwork rather than use the FMS artwork to avoid litigation? Please explain.

A cease & desist could've come down on the 1st series buttons. But not just because of the Lugosi vs Universal lawsuit. It would more likely be that they weren't licensed. THAT would stop production ("No copyright on the curl, boys! What? We didn't get a license?"). ALL of these auction explanations about the Dracula button image change-over and/or that's why they left the copyright off the buttons, BECAUSE of the lawsuit ~ are hogwash. Can we agree to that?
If THE ONLY problem was the Lugosi Dracula, WHY cancel the other five? Pre-production is done and there's $ to be made. The Lugosi lawsuit just doesn't do it for me with these button variations.

If Warren owned the company, was the company, knew the company, etc. for the first production buttons and had access to product, WHY not sell the small tin-lithos through Captain Company too? I don't think Jim Warren was ever shy about putting product in the pages of Famous Monsters. Licensed small tin litho buttons, BTW.

So, maybe these 1st series buttons were not meant to be sold?

It would be nice if someone could ask Jim Warren. Need some more clues here. Occam's razor would be nice but can anyone add anything else known? We can end this if everyone's satisfied.

Unless another Mummy variation unmarked shows up, I'm taking dibs for my button being on FJA's lapel! 

[Mike Scott]

The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved

Yes, it documents the date, but I don't see how it says Warren was likely involved. Is it possible? Anything's possible.

[Mike Scott]

WHY not sell the small tin-lithos through Captain Company too?

That's another point I was going to make. If they're Warren buttons, they would have bee sold through CC.

[Monster Bob]

A post back, Bob, you talked about the Lowell Dracula artwork. We know its on the first button variation. I didn't follow what that had to do with the timeline & genesis of the buttons. Did you imply that if Warren produced the 1st buttons and owned the artwork (the company too) that created the FMS record, that they would borrow the Lowell artwork rather than use the FMS artwork to avoid litigation? Please explain.

My point was only that the changing of the art on the poster was likely done as a response to the "Lugosi suit" due to the dates involved; it would be interesting to get an exact date on when the poster came out. I think the box is dated 1963, but I think we got them new like more in 1965.  The poster stole the exact pose from FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! and altered the arms and head- so for sure the record preceded the poster (the record shows an unaltered Lugosi.) Then apparently the first button came after the poster, as it seems to have stolen the altered horn art from the poster.

With the dates of Aurora kit ('62) and the Paint Set ('63) taken into consideration, I think it's logical to figure the "horn" altering was a response to the Lugosi suit, a couple of years later. With the button being definately out in 1965 (thanks to that FJA photo) we also know the poster was for sale after the paint set (63) and before the button (65), for sure.

[Monster Bob]

I went and found the Monster Magic set...obviously this art was stolen from the poster/record...Dracula is really looking like the MAD MAGICIAN here, and they turned Frankenstein into Mr. Clean!

[Richard]

My point was only that the changing of the art on the poster was likely done as a response to the "Lugosi suit" due to the dates involved; it would be interesting to get an exact date on when the poster came out. I think the box is dated 1963, but I think we got them new like more in 1965. 

OK, I was confused how this involved the buttons directly. You are speaking of the poster art alone~ as a precurser to the buttons (ie. whatever image was left standing was going to be the button image). Agreed, alterations on the Lowell Dracula 6 ft poster art could very well be a defense in response to the Lugosi suit -for Lowell (another Warren Company?  )

So, do you think the Hake's auction is correct after all? I'll print part of it again.
>>"This first version features a stylized version which clearly represents Bela Lugosi's portrayal as Count Dracula. This version of the button saw extremely limited distribution due to a trademark infringement claim made by Lugosi's son. The design was ultimately changed, featuring the more common design showing an altered face, 2 hands instead of 1 ...anon,anon)"<<

Putting aside the fact that they don't know what button they are talking about, can this scenario fit the picture? A cease & desist and all the buttons go in the trash heap? I like the copyright infringement (ie. no license on the buttons) a whole lot better.
But, certainly, the Lowell artwork instead of the FMS LP art could have been a defensive stance.

I have the Lowell Frankenstein 6 ft poster box. It should match the Dracula with year info. I'll check it and post back. I'll also see if I can tell what # FM that the posters first hit Captain Company.

[Richard]

I went and found the Monster Magic set...obviously this art was stolen from the poster/record...Dracula is really looking like the MAD MAGICIAN here, and they turned Frankenstein into Mr. Clean!

That's cool! Dracula is starting to look more like Karloff 

[Richard]

I have the Lowell Frankenstein 6 ft poster box. It should match the Dracula with year info. I'll check it and post back. Company.

Yep, 1963. Hmm..that was a bit of time before these posters hit the street. A release delay because of the lawsuit? Change in artwork?

[Toy Ranch]

The main reason I think Bob's theory makes a lot of sense is that nothing else turns up from Elwar  If they were an independent button company, you would think they would make more than just monster buttons.  Even if they were short lived, they'd try a broader product range than that. 

The fact that Warren made buttons that are similar to the small ones further advances it.

And also, it was pretty common at the time for people to start multiple businesses under different names towards building an empire.  Going into the button business?   Start a button company.  1965 is the year Warren moved from Philadelphia to New York, and Elwar is placed in New York by the card.   

I checked online and New York doesn't have records going back that far in their database.  I bet they do have the records available for searching though.  Maybe a FOIA request is in order....

[Mike Scott]

And also, it was pretty common at the time for people to start multiple businesses under different names towards building an empire.

Seems silly to go through all the paperwork to incorporate another company just to produce a couple of sets of buttons, especially when they were already making buttons under the Warren Pub name, and then not sell the one set through CC.

[Toy Ranch]

Elwar Ltd.

Limited partnership?  Between Warren and some dude with button making gear?

Later Warren bought the equipment?

Lots of possibilities

[The Phantom Creep]

Here is a scan of the top of my Lowell 6 ft. Dracula poster box.