Elwar Button Mystery

[Richard]

I have two Phantoms -- one standard Elwar -- the other identical to Ray's.  I think the non-Elwars are first run Elwars.  Perhaps Universal got wind of these buttons and contacted Elwar and they worked out a deal.  So, they cleaned 'em up, used a better font, added copyright info and the rest is history.

THANKS for this info! I thought, if more than one example of any of the non-marked buttons shows up, then we maybe have a 1st run production button rather than a prototype (I'm bothered by the lack of info on the button curl, though). Again, many thanks.

Though your idea of "Universal getting wind of these buttons..." is an interesting one, I have a difficult time with it. Let's say, Elwar wants to sell large buttons "under the table" so they can avoid Universal fees. They don't want anyone to know who made them so they leave off the Elwar name too. WHY keep the manufacturer a big secret? The artwork they used is the same (actually the source) on the small button ad card AND was shrunk/tin litho'd for the small buttons that DO contain the Elwar/Universal info. So I'm assuming that license was "already in hand" and no argument existed. Also I believe, a company used to have to indicate the country of manufacture (ie. Made in USA, Made in Hong Kong, etc) somewhere on the product or box to sell them at retail. I think it's still required but don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about this.

But the biggest question mark is...why create New art, New separations, etch NEW printing plates...JUST to place info on the button curl? This would be an expensive re-do, even in the 60s. As was mentioned, the kids would not have cared which artwork was eventually used. And these were for children! Elwar was trying to make money for itself, not create future collectables that looked a bit nicer/neater in their second coming. The font used was it's own separation, so it was the same on the small tin litho buttons and the common large ones. An "info" separation could have been added to the original artwork in production without the additional expenses of starting COMPLETELY over.

I do agree/believe that these non-marked large buttons came first.
And I really think the ability to produce them, with this artwork, was lost very early on.
The reason I cling to the "lost everything/burned everything/stole everything at the printers" theory is because it would force Elwar to start over again to fulfill orders. Added expenses for them but they had no choice as there were orders to fill. So, bring in another artist to create new artwork to resemble the first (only his artistic style, by luck, turned out a finer, more pleasing image). The line font (The Mummy, The Phantom, etc) separations already exist for the small buttons so no need to recreate these again. Also, the 1st button backs are different from the 2nd button backs. This would indicate a change in the jobber that Elwar used.

I just don't think the "1st button Dracula looks like Lugosi so we had to change it to the 2nd button version to get Jr. off our backs" theory has any merit whatsover, despite what Hake's auction listing thinks. Look at the two images...does anyone really think the 2nd Dracula looks less like Lugosi than the first?    A non-issue here.

~Other ideas that have been floated by~
1) the idea that these non-marked buttons were made for foreign toy markets and didn't require/want the Universal/Elwar marks.
Seems unlikely. How many have shown up in foreign lands over the decades?
2) that these are 1st run prototypes to be shopped/promoted/given out (to stir up interest).
Maybe to show to Universal to obtain license.
Well?...maybe?...pretty expensive for a test run, though. And why not, at least, have the info on the curl to advertise your company?
3) a 1st run mistake. "Damn, we produced 1,000 buttons and we FORGOT to include the info on the curl! Oh, well, no use throwing out perfectly good product. Let's get it right on the rest of the buttons, though"
This could happen I suppose...but WHY change the artwork?
4) That there are A WHOLE TON OF THESE out there. But NO ONE has BOTHERED to look/compare their own buttons up until now because they weren't aware of the existence of 2 versions. Once everyone checks their stuff, we could have a whole army of these 1st issues.
But then we are back to the "why no info on the curl" problem

and last,

5) These are 'fake copy'  buttons to cheat the market (the world's first repro in the monster toy market)
And FJA made 'em and decided to wear 'em in 1965 at the Unimart store.

Thanks again, for the post, Gakenstein!
Anyone else, ideas?
This IS fun to speculate
Best,
Richard

[Richard]

There's one on eBay right now for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I sold one for $35
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925

By the way, did you know those small ones came out in 1960?  PSA says they did
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888

I've owned 5 Dracula buttons, but I'm down to 1.  All of them were just like the one Hake's is selling.

Thanks, Bobby!
That's why I said, I'll take $100 for my extra Dracula! 
These are not as rare/expensive as Hake's thinks they are!

And PSA is losing ground in credibility  I think doing this to a collectable is really dumb, anyway!

Because, Hmmmm...I see 4 of the buttons ~ that are rated/graded/placed in an air free atmosphere/sprinkled with pixie dust/entombed forever/charged a useless fee ~marked as 1960 by PSA and the Frankenstein and Creature are 1965! I love solid information like that. If you asked 'em how they arrived at these dates, they'd be like my cats after breaking something. "Who me? I didn't do it? Don't know how this happened!"
Oh,well.

Thanks again, Bobby, for your valued imput!
Best,
Richard

[Mike Scott]

There's one on eBay right now for $50

So, hows come this one has round holes on the back and the copyright info on the edge? Another variation?

I sold one for $35

Which version was it?

PSA says they did

Are there any cases like that for buttons that you can open and close?

[Richard]

So, hows come this one has round holes on the back and the copyright info on the edge? Another variation?

The one on eBay for $50, Mike?... It's a common version Dracula.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

The common button SHOULD have round holes on the back and copyright info on the edge. The variation has rectangular holes on the back, no button curl info at all, and the different font/artwork. The seller has the common button. But there is that goofy Lugosi vs Universal thing again.

He states, in his description~

>>"Available via the Famous Monsters magazine of the 1960's, the set is comprised of six 3.5' size full-color cello buttons made by Elwar Ltd. c. 1965. ©Universal Pictures Inc. These buttons include Wolf Man, The Phantom, The Mummy, The Creature, Frankenstein and Dracula. All have Universal Pictures Co. Inc. copyright on rim curl with the exception of Dracula due to ongoing image trademark litigation between Universal and Bela Lugosi's son (which STILL goes on to this day!).  This listing is for the Dracual button."<<

Why is this Lugosi problem so prevalent in these button descriptions?

I emailed the seller of this auction. I said, If he'd just look at the picture of the back of HIS button that HE posted, he would see the info/copyright printed right on the edge (I can see it).

It's also interesting that these buttons are being dated so easily. There are NO dates on any of the buttons. 1965 seems the best fit for the appearence of the large Elwars. I wonder if this is "monkey see, monkey do" by the sellers when they date these items. Otherwise, how would they know? I don't have the small button card, Mike. Does THAT show a date on it anywhere?

Best,
Richard

[Mike Scott]

The one on eBay for $50, Mike?... It's a common version Dracula.

Oh crap, it is! For some reason, I was expecting it to be the other and didn't really even look at it.

I don't have the small button card, Mike. Does THAT show a date on it anywhere?

Nope, no date. Just Universal and Elwar and USA. Must have come out after FM Speaks in '63.

[raycastile]

I always assumed the lack of copyright info on the edge branded these as fakes.  There have been PLENTY on ebay with no writing on the edge.  I know because I've passed on them for that reason.  But now I will be paying attention to them!  I've already got a head start with the Phantom, so I might as well collect 'em all.

[Richard]

I always assumed the lack of copyright info on the edge branded these as fakes.  There have been PLENTY on ebay with no writing on the edge.  I know because I've passed on them for that reason.  But now I will be paying attention to them!  I've already got a head start with the Phantom, so I might as well collect 'em all.

I wouldn't mind having some other examples, myself! 
'Know what, Ray? After this UMA thread has described the variations in detail, we'll probably start seeing some nice fake repro buttons all over eBay 


Best,
Richard

[Toy Ranch]

Does anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.  A google search on Elwar Ltd ONLY comes up with links back to the monster buttons, and scant few of those.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search

[Mike Scott]

The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.

Since it's not a complete address, it wouldn't have/need a zip code. Zip codes started in '63.

[Richard]

Does anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.  A google search on Elwar Ltd ONLY comes up with links back to the monster buttons, and scant few of those.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search

Bobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

That PSA-graded small button eBay auction with the dating -on 4 of them- as 1960?...dooooon't think so! The other two buttons, dated 1965?...yeah, this is possible/probable.

Best,
Richard

[Toy Ranch]

Since it's not a complete address, it wouldn't have/need a zip code. Zip codes started in '63.

I've seen company lines like that have zip codes on them, even if they aren't complete addresses.  But obviously that isn't necessary.

Zip codes started in 1963, but didn't become mandatory for anything until 1968, when they became mandatory for 2nd and 3rd class mail.  It wasn't until 1971 that they became mandated for 1st class mail, as part of the postal service reorganization. 

[Mike Scott]

But obviously that isn't necessary.

That's what I meant, that lack of zip didn't indicate that it came before zip, which is what I thought you were going for.

[Mike Scott]

BTW, does anybody know of any other products (or even any other buttons) mfged by Elwar?

[Richard]

BTW, does anybody know of any other products (or even any other buttons) mfged by Elwar?

I don't, Mike.
And this is a REALLY good question!

[Toy Ranch]

Bobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

That PSA-graded small button eBay auction with the dating -on 4 of them- as 1960?...dooooon't think so! The other two buttons, dated 1965?...yeah, this is possible/probable.

Best,
Richard

Well, that makes sense with my (failed) attempts to research Elwar.  I always figured they made many buttons, of all different sort, but all my searches dead-end with monster buttons.  The small ones are reasonably plentiful, and their condition suggests that there was a warehouse find of them.  The reports of seeing them in gumball machines through the 70's and into even the 80's (if accurate), indicate the production was fairly large, compared to the big buttons, which are scarce if not rare.  The Dracula, Phantom, and Mummy seem to be the most plentiful of the large size.  The Frankenstein and Creature show up less often and tend to go for more money.  The Wolf Man has eluded me and several others here for years.  I think the last one I saw and bid on, I was outbid at $140.  I've had a saved search for it, sorting through Wolf Man buttons on eBay for at least a couple years. 

Getting back to Elwar...  if the buttons they made were only monster buttons, it may have been a flash-in-the-pan company that only made buttons for a year or less.