Elwar Button Mystery

[Wolfman]

Yup!

Interesting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

JP

[Mike Scott]

Interesting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

Nope!

[Mike Scott]

I moved all the "Spooky Surprise" posts to their new thread.

[Hepcat]

Interesting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

[horrorhunter]

That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

You might have something there. 

[Wolfman]

That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

Hey Hep, we might have to put you on this case as a top-notch sleuth.

JP

[Hepcat]

I have to be a sleuth on these buttons because I wasn't even aware of their existence until I joined UMA.

[Hepcat]

I think the answer to why there are two different variants of the 3 1/2" buttons may be found in Richard's musings which I've quoted below:

Here is ONE possibility (and why my monster collector friend is interested in buying). I only present it for discussion coz I have NO IDEA!

Perhaps, artwork was created for buttons. Prototypes were made for a trade show to drum up business (the crude-ness of the lettering seems to hint at a prototype. "Here, put the name of the monster on it before you make up samples so Universal's happy"). Now the samples are shown at a trade show. And interest is strong...but for a small button that can be dispensed in gumball machines. No problem, we can do that sez Elwar. But the artwork is too busy on a 3/4 inch button and the tin litho begs for minimal color. They zoom in on the heads and cut out much of the artwork in making the dot-pattern tin litho small buttons. And the lettering is done again, only neater, on an additional separation in the printing.

All is well, product is being made~maybe even sold.

Then, maybe, someone decides that they really like the full color artwork idea on a larger button (maybe there is even a request for them by a jobber/distributor and Elwar sees a chance to make more money with their Universal license). They go back to the artwork but it's been lettered on...MAYBE EVEN LOST. Horrors, they say! We need to redo the artwork again. So this time, it turns out better,neater,more pleasing...and...the neat,nice lettering from the small buttons is reproduced on the large ones. These are sold happily ever after (Lugosi Jr., not withstanding).

Then, at some sad period of time, Elwar goes out of business and someone gets to take the sample buttons with original artwork home with them. To give to the kids, give to the neighbors,fill a small box at an estate sale, WIND UP ON eBay!

And now, 2008, no one remembers how this all came to be.

Why different artwork? ...Elwar would not have gone through all the upfront expenses, again, to produce new variations (improved artwork and lettering) for production run number 2 and on (Hey, these were for kids, not adult collectors...nothing wrong with the 1st variations in a kid's mind). So why did they do just that?

I'm thinking this...
These were 1st run buttons. Forget Lugosi Jr. lawsuit vs Universal, it has nothing to do with this. The artwork was then used on the header card and simplified for the small tin litho buttons.
The separations, film, printing plate production were all completed for large button production.
Now here is where I speculate~

But the printer (a) went out of business and nothing could be retrieved by Elwar. Time to start over again (b) The artwork,film,plates,everything were destroyed in a fire? (could happen~just ask Bob Burns about Fantastic Monsters of the Films #8 and all his stills and stuff to be used in that issue-lost forever in flame). Again, start over again to fill orders (c) Angry printer holding up all the production materials and work because of some disagreement (over money, time, ?) In the disagreement, the production materials would be held hostage and Elwar would be forced to obtain new artwork, separations, film, printing plates and go from there (with the common examples we have today).

How does any of this sound?

But the biggest question mark is...why create New art, New separations, etch NEW printing plates...JUST to place info on the button curl? This would be an expensive re-do, even in the 60s. As was mentioned, the kids would not have cared which artwork was eventually used. And these were for children! Elwar was trying to make money for itself, not create future collectables that looked a bit nicer/neater in their second coming. The font used was it's own separation, so it was the same on the small tin litho buttons and the common large ones. An "info" separation could have been added to the original artwork in production without the additional expenses of starting COMPLETELY over.

I do agree/believe that these non-marked large buttons came first.
And I really think the ability to produce them, with this artwork, was lost very early on.
The reason I cling to the "lost everything/burned everything/stole everything at the printers" theory is because it would force Elwar to start over again to fulfill orders. Added expenses for them but they had no choice as there were orders to fill. So, bring in another artist to create new artwork to resemble the first (only his artistic style, by luck, turned out a finer, more pleasing image). The line font (The Mummy, The Phantom, etc) separations already exist for the small buttons so no need to recreate these again. Also, the 1st button backs are different from the 2nd button backs. This would indicate a change in the jobber that Elwar used.

I think the most likely explanation would have been a contract dispute with respect to the price the printer/manufacturer required from Elwar for a full-fledged production run of the 3 1/2" buttons. These would have had just over sixteen times the surface area of the 7/8" buttons which would therefore have required that much more ink to print. Moreover a full four colour print job would have been required for the large buttons while the small buttons needed only a two colour print job. Furthermore the 3 1/2" buttons would also have been thicker thus requiring more than sixteen times the metal. The large buttons were also to be placed on cards requiring their own printing. Worse yet affixing the buttons to the cards probably required a manual work operation! Finally the print run for the large buttons was likely smaller meaning less economies of scale.

So how much pricier would/should the large buttons have been compared to the small ones? Ten times more expensive? Tough to say, but whatever the printer/manufacturer wanted Elwar was likely reluctant to pay.

[Hepcat]

Does anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.

Bobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

I remember the small ones on display. I saw them in 1c machines with that header-for sure. One time in the middle of Florida at a tourist stop- about 1967 I'd say. Once near Lacaster, Pa., once in Ohio- both about 1968 or so. Then again in Florida, probably 1971-ish.  The buttons would be mixed in with 1c gumballs, but you'd have to spend a quarter to get a button- there were never many buttoms in the machine, compared to the gumballs.

I know in about 1982 or so I bought hundreds of these buttons (small) and probably 30 header cards, all old 1960s stock. There was a big find of gumball stuff, and I bought anything Monster they had. I used to sell sets at Toy Shows and eventually Toy Shop.

So therefore it would appear that the 7/8" buttons were sold in vending machines from 1965(?) or so until sometime in the 1980's. These small buttons were available either as teaser prizes in penny gumball machines or in the little plastic capsules at higher prices  (ever higher) over the next fifteen plus years.

[Mike Scott]

And the most important sentence is . . .

"And now, 2008 (and 17), no one remembers how this all came to be."

Sad, but true!

[Hepcat]

It still surprises me that so few UMAers actually remember getting the small buttons from vending machines or buying the large buttons on cards in retail stores back in the sixties.

[Monolith]

I recently and finally, completed my collection of the small Elwar buttons. Don't know why it took me so long. But anyway I took a pic of them so, I thought I'd post it. Here they are with an original vending machine card...

[Monolith]

And here are my large Elwar's. The Dracula and the Frankenstein I've had since the late '60's or early '70's. They were originally my older brothers. I think I've asked him before where he got them but he doesn't remember. The others I collected slowly, one at a time over the years. I love the artwork and colors on them.

[Mike Scott]

Most impressive ELWAR collections! Love the original card!

Do you also have the small set that looks like the big set?

[Hepcat]

I recently and finally, completed my collection of the small Elwar buttons.... Here they are with an original vending machine card.

And here are my large Elwar's.

Can you post a picture of the small ones beside the large ones for comparison's sake?