Larry Talbot: Wolfman or Werewolf?

[Earth 2 Chris]

I thought it was just due to pressure on the brain. Wait...House of Dracula was WRONG?!?

Chris

[Zackuth]

Maybe it's the disease which is the cause of the pressure.

[Haunted hearse]

I have always viewed lycanthropy as a disease. As a disease it affects each human host a bit differently. That being said, never like the 4 legged version as it seems to be the least believable of the transformations. To me, the beast should be a blending of both man(were) and wolf.

It's still more believable then the blending of man and house, which is why to this day, nobody has made a movie about a werehouse!

[MONSTERMOSH]

I think both types of lycantropes have their own merit but I prefer the more human looking bipedal type, and my favorite is Jack Pierce's Werewolf of London make-up, it is so simple yet effective.

[ravenloft]

Lycanthropy (which is Greek and means wolf man shape) is an ancient Greek legend from antiquity. The earliest writings contain werewolves or shapeshifters. Werewolves later have been in Central European folklore for centuries, and around the world in many different cultures as well from the Norse "Weres" and berserkers "bear shirts,"  the French loup-garou, to the Native American skin walkers.

The werewolf legends have been formalized as follows;
True lycanthropy is a inherited trait passed on to offspring genetically. Beginning to onset the change at puberty, true lycanthropes can control their change at will, retain their intellect in beast form, and can change into three forms: human, a wolf human hybrid (typically a humanoid with a wolf's head) and wolf form. Bela the gypsy would have been a true lycanthrope. True lycanthropes can never be cured as it is their very nature to live in duality with the beast inside themselves.

Infected lycanthropy is passed as a contagious pathogen in blood or saliva or other body fluids to a host, usually during an attack by a lycanthrope. If the victim somehow survives a bite or attack, they will almost surely contract the disease. An infected lycanthrope can only turn into a wolf human hybrid form and a human form, and is subject to the full moon or other involuntary cyclical triggers for the metamorphosis. Infected lose their powers of the mind and are taken over by the beast, retaining only vestiges of the person's memories such as familiar places or loved ones until they revert to human form again. An affected lycanthropy can sometimes be cured if the original lycanthropy that bit them can be found and destroyed. It may also involve complex arcane rituals to purify the vessel of the afflicted as well. Mothers can pass the infection on to their unborn children who in turn become infected lycanthropes but only a child born of true lycanthope parent(s) can also be a true werewolf and control their change.
People who contracted rabies were said to be werewolves and to turn into beasts. Mentally ill people and serial killers (long before the term was coined) were convicted and executed as werewolves as well.

The third most rare type is maledictive lycanthropy, usually caused by a curse or evil arcane ritual. they can produce infected lycanthropes with their bite as well.

Werewolves have supernatural strength and vigor making them virtually immune to any regular violent means of death, but they are traditionally vulnerable to silver because of its association with the moon, also they can be destroyed by immolation in fire, because fire is the great destroyer and one of the original gifts of the Gods to men (or stolen from them.) Aconitum or wolf's bane is a deadly toxic plant genus containing over 250 species that is a poison traditionally used to lace sheep's carcasses to kill marauding wolves since ancient times. It also works on werewolves (and nearly any other living creature that unfortunately ingests it for that matter.) Most legends have them die out in long lived generations and leave offspring, modern interpretations have made them immortal similar to vampires.

Werewolves usually refers to men who turn into wolves or the wolf head hybrid type of werewolf, while wolfman is reserved solely for the flatter faced version original to Universal Pictures. Universal Studios departed from the traditional wolf's head man/wolf hybrid in folklore by using Jack Pierce's flat faced makeup version for the Werewolf of London in 1935 and the Wolfman 1941 movie and thus the "wolfman" version of the hybrid werewolf was created. Wolfman refers strictly to the more human looking flat faced kind of the movies, while werewolf is an all encompassing term.

Theriothropes (animal/man hybrids) has since been theorized from nearly any carnivorous animal although lycanthopy is the likely origin of all legends as wolves are pack hunters and engage in social behavior like humans unlike most solitary hunting species.

[aura of foreboding]

Werewolves usually refers to men who turn into wolves or the wolf head hybrid type of werewolf, while wolfman is reserved solely for the flatter faced version original to Universal Pictures. Universal Studios departed from the traditional wolf's head man/wolf hybrid in folklore by using Jack Pierce's flat faced makeup version for the Werewolf of London in 1935 and the Wolfman 1941 movie and thus the "wolfman" version of the hybrid werewolf was created. Wolfman refers strictly to the more human looking flat faced kind of the movies, while werewolf is an all encompassing term.

I'm sorry, but, by placing this sentence amidst all of this legendary history, you are purporting this as fact, and it simply is not.  It's an opinion.  The facts, however, speak for themselves.  It was not technically possible (or desired) to make Chaney an actual wolf or to give him a long face, as that would defeat the whole point of the picture: to introduce Chaney as the new icon of horror, the son of the Man of a Thousand Faces.  Just because Universal chose a title that had less connection to Germany (during the War), and because they wanted to differentiate their new creation through the title, does not mean they created a whole new type of creature. 

The term "werewolf" used in the film is multifaceted.  It can be psychological, physical, or both.  It does not establish, in any sort of canon, a new type of creature simply because of the makeup used on the monster. 

[ravenloft]

Of course we are talking about mythological creatures and nothing is a "fact", when dealing with the make-believe.

I never said it was a whole new creature, perhaps you need to reread my statement more carefully. I said that "Wolfman" refers strictly to the Universal Studios flat faced werewolf hybrid form, and that the term "werewolf" was more all encompassing, including quadruped wolves, bipedal hybrids with wolf heads, and the Wolfman anthropomorphic style werewolf hybrids. Visual depiction does matter greatly however, all animals have been classified by visual attributes from antiquity to the modern day based on how they look. Only very recently have we differentiated animals based on their genetic makeup and not how they look in comparison to other animals.  By creating a unique look they did in a sense, create a new creature, but it is still a werewolf.

No opinion here just the facts: Wolfman is an iconic term and iconic flat faced makeup version of a werewolf human/wolf hybrid that originated with Universal Studios films. Nowhere previously in the literature, art, folklore or on screen was a Werewolf depicted with a human face covered in hair. Some psychological werewolves retained their human form and just acted like beasts, but any depiction of an actual werewolf transformation always included a wolf's head. They had the head of a wolf or at least the longer muzzle of one. True, the flat faced makeup arose out of the difficulties of doing a longer muzzled creature with the makeup of the day and possibly to retain some resemblance to the actor but that is besides the point. Wolfman is a werewolf, but all werewolves are not wolfmen. It is a subcategory of werewolves.


german werewolf woodcut 1722


16th century woodcut

Psychological werewolf


All subsequent flat faced werewolves such as I was a teenage werewolf, and teen wolf are directly influenced by the Jack Pierce Universal "Wolfman" make up and could be considered wolfmen.

Some real-world rare diseases actually resemble the wolfman makeup like Hypertrichosis, but were never associated with werewolves until after the Wolfman films were released. Instead they were displayed in the 19th and early 20th centuries as wildmen, dog faced men, cavemen or beastmen on the playbills and by sideshow barkers and were not associated with the European legends of the werewolf until later.  After the movies came out, all such performers were referred to as wolfmen due to the quite coincidental resemblance.

[ravenloft]

  It was not technically possible (or desired) to make Chaney an actual wolf or to give him a long face, as that would defeat the whole point of the picture: to introduce Chaney as the new icon of horror, the son of the Man of a Thousand Faces.

This statement is incorrect.

Jack Pierce developed the original unique flat faced werewolf look now termed the"Wolfman" for the Werewolf of London in 1935 by Universal Pictures; starring Henry Hull.  The original makeup for that film was intended to be the same Wolfman makeup later used in the 1941 film but Hull felt it was too concealing and refused to do it, so Pierce toned it down a bit for the 1936 film that came out 6 years before Lon Chaney Jr. became the much more iconic Wolfman. The make up design had nothing at all to do with the Chaney legacy or was it created solely for Creighton Tull Cheney as the son of The Man of a Thousand Faces Lon Chaney because it was originally intended for the actor Henry Hull and was only actually used on film 6 years later on Chaney by Pierce who happened to be the same makeup artist. Any actor cast for the 1941 film likely would have had Pierce trying his unused makeup idea on them.

1936 Henry Hull werewolf test make up

[aura of foreboding]

This statement is incorrect.

Jack Pierce developed the original unique flat faced werewolf look now termed the"Wolfman" for the Werewolf of London in 1935 by Universal Pictures; starring Henry Hull.  The original makeup for that film was intended to be the same Wolfman makeup later used in the 1941 film but Hull felt it was too concealing and refused to do it, so Pierce toned it down a bit for the 1936 film that came out 6 years before Lon Chaney Jr. became the much more iconic Wolfman. The make up design had nothing at all to do with the Chaney legacy or was it created solely for Creighton Tull Cheney as the son of The Man of a Thousand Faces Lon Chaney because it was originally intended for the actor Henry Hull and was only actually used on film 6 years later on Chaney by Pierce who happened to be the same makeup artist. Any actor cast for the 1941 film likely would have had Pierce trying his unused makeup idea on them.

1936 Henry Hull werewolf test make up

I am quite aware of Werewolf of London, thank you. 

Again, there is no difference between a werewolf and a wolf man.  They are the same creature -- which is what the OP was asking.  It's all about branding and marketing.  If you want to believe that the makeup that an actor wears differentiates the two, feel free. 

[aura of foreboding]

I do think that your enthusiasm for the subject is wonderful, though. 

[ravenloft]

I am quite aware of Werewolf of London, thank you. 

Again, there is  no difference between a werewolf and a wolf man. They are the same creature -- which is what the OP was asking.  It's all about branding and marketing.  If you want to believe that the makeup that an actor wears differentiates the two, feel free.

"Wolfman" is a distinct type of werewolf with a flat looking face. The jack Pierce iconic make up created this new more human looking werewolf that is obviously different from the traditional depictions in legends and folklore that preceded it. Anthropomorphic animal figures, shapeshifters, and werewolves are depicted from earliest human history with an animal's head on a human form, or as the animal itself that a human turned into. That standard template did not change until Pierce came up with new makeup designs for the Universal films.

So yes, they are the same creature,  I never said they were not (no sure why you don't seem to understand that), and yes, there are differences between a standard traditional werewolf that typically was depicted as a quadruped wolf or a biped humanoid with a wolf's head, and the new "wolfman" type of werewolf which is much more anthropomorphic or human looking. Pierce unleashed a totally new form of werewolf on the world in 1936, the "wolfman."

Here are lists of just a few films that show the two clearly distinct types of werewolf so you can see the obvious differences

More traditional werewolf types depicted in film:
She-Wolf of London (1946)
Wolfen (1981)
Howling, The (1981)
An American Werewolf In London (1981)
Company of Wolves, The (1984)
Ladyhawke (1985)
Howling II, The (1985)
Silver Bullet (1985)
Howling IV, The : The Original Nightmare (1988)
Lone Wolf (1988)
Howling V, The : The Rebirth (1989)
Red Riding Hood (1989)
Howling VI, The : The Freaks (1990)
Nightmare Before Christmas, The (1993)
Howling, The : New Moon Rising (1994)
Wilderness (1996)
Underworld (2003)
Van Helsing (2004)
Underworld : Evolution (2006)
Blood and Chocolate (2007)
Underworld: Rise of the Lycans (2009)
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (2009)
Twilight Saga, The: New Moon (2009)
Twilight Saga, The: Eclipse (2010)
Red Riding Hood (2011)
Howling, The: Reborn (2011)
Twilight Saga, The: Breaking Dawn - Part 1 (2011)
Underworld: Awakening (2012)
Hotel Transylvania (2012)
Twilight Saga, The: Breaking Dawn - Part 2 (2012)

"Wolfman" type werewolves in film:
Werewolf of London, The (1935)
Wolf Man, The (1941) Has both, the main character portrayed by Lon Chaney Jr. is bitten by a traditional type of werewolf but transforms into a wolfman type of werewolf.
Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man (1943)
Return of the Vampire, The (1944)
House of Frankenstein (1944)
House of Dracula (1945)
Bud Abbott and Lou Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948)
I Was A Teenage Werewolf (1957)
Curse of the Werewolf, The (1961)
Legend of the Werewolf (1975)
Teen Wolf (1985)
Monster Squad, The (1987)
Teen Wolf Too (1987)
Fright Night Part II (1989)
Wolf (1994) Has both, the main character portrayed by Jack Nicholson is bitten by a traditional type of werewolf but transforms into a wolfman type of werewolf.
Wolfman, The (2010)
Dark Shadows (2012)

[ravenloft]

I like the interpretation that he would become more wolf-like as time went on, and that he was bi-pedal during this series as he had only been a Wolfman for a brief period of time, relatively.

The reason I love this interpretation is due in no small part to the fact that I once heard it espoused from the lips of a six year old boy. It was back in 1999. The Music Box theater in Chicago was showing a print of the "The Wolf Man", and afterwards, in the lobby, this kid who had come with his dad to see the move, was wondering aloud why Bela the werewolf had 4 legs and looked like a dog, but Larry Talbot looked like a man. The kid then came out with this whole little theory, complete from whole cloth, and spoken with the solemnity of someone defending a doctoral thesis. It as wonderful to behold. I smiled the rest of the day. I smile now as I think about it.

Interestingly, the movie "Wolf" with Jack Nicholson follows this tack. He starts out like a Henry Hull werewolf, but by film's end has become a quadriped.

Matt

Very interesting, I had not heard of this gradually becoming more like a wolf theory before.

In general I prefer hybrid werewolves that are bipedal that show a mixture of man and beast to depictions of just a man transforming into a regular wolf. My all time favorite werewolf on film is An American werewolf in London. As much as I love the Pierce/Chaney Wolfman makeup, you do have to admit it kinda looks like a furry pig instead of a wolf.

[aura of foreboding]

"Wolfman" is a distinct type of werewolf with a flat looking face. The jack Pierce iconic make up created this new more human looking werewolf that is obviously different from the traditional depictions in legends and folklore that preceded it. Anthropomorphic animal figures, shapeshifters, and werewolves are depicted from earliest human history with an animal's head on a human form, or as the animal itself that a human turned into. That standard template did not change until Pierce came up with new makeup designs for the Universal films.

So yes, they are the same creature,  I never said they were not (no sure why you don't seem to understand that), and yes, there are differences between a standard traditional werewolf that typically was depicted as a quadruped wolf or a biped humanoid with a wolf's head, and the new "wolfman" type of werewolf which is much more anthropomorphic or human looking. Pierce unleashed a totally new form of werewolf on the world in 1936, the "wolfman."

Here are lists of just a few films that show the two clearly distinct types of werewolf so you can see the obvious differences

More traditional werewolf types depicted in film:
She-Wolf of London (1946)
Wolfen (1981)
Howling, The (1981)
An American Werewolf In London (1981)
Company of Wolves, The (1984)
Ladyhawke (1985)
Howling II, The (1985)
Silver Bullet (1985)
Howling IV, The : The Original Nightmare (1988)
Lone Wolf (1988)
Howling V, The : The Rebirth (1989)
Red Riding Hood (1989)
Howling VI, The : The Freaks (1990)
Nightmare Before Christmas, The (1993)
Howling, The : New Moon Rising (1994)
Wilderness (1996)
Underworld (2003)
Van Helsing (2004)
Underworld : Evolution (2006)
Blood and Chocolate (2007)
Underworld: Rise of the Lycans (2009)
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (2009)
Twilight Saga, The: New Moon (2009)
Twilight Saga, The: Eclipse (2010)
Red Riding Hood (2011)
Howling, The: Reborn (2011)
Twilight Saga, The: Breaking Dawn - Part 1 (2011)
Underworld: Awakening (2012)
Hotel Transylvania (2012)
Twilight Saga, The: Breaking Dawn - Part 2 (2012)

"Wolfman" type werewolves in film:
Werewolf of London, The (1935)
Wolf Man, The (1941) Has both, the main character portrayed by Lon Chaney Jr. is bitten by a traditional type of werewolf but transforms into a wolfman type of werewolf.
Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man (1943)
Return of the Vampire, The (1944)
House of Frankenstein (1944)
House of Dracula (1945)
Bud Abbott and Lou Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948)
I Was A Teenage Werewolf (1957)
Curse of the Werewolf, The (1961)
Legend of the Werewolf (1975)
Teen Wolf (1985)
Monster Squad, The (1987)
Teen Wolf Too (1987)
Fright Night Part II (1989)
Wolf (1994) Has both, the main character portrayed by Jack Nicholson is bitten by a traditional type of werewolf but transforms into a wolfman type of werewolf.
Wolfman, The (2010)
Dark Shadows (2012)

Thanks for the color coding.  It really helps. 

I guess I am just too dumb to see how your first post answers the question of the original poster, which is the only reason why anyone would go to all of this trouble in this topic and not start one of his own, considering that this was a topic about quadrupeds vs bipeds -- wherein the original poster is pondering why Talbot did not walk on all fours.  We had already discussed that, thus we did not need to go into a long explanation of the history of lycanthropes four months after the fact.  This topic had been rather light and full of great artwork from the OP, and then -- all of a sudden -- it became a history lesson on lycanthropy.  After I made my comment, your posts shifted and eventually evolved into something more relevant to the OP's inquiry. 

You're welcome. 

Although, I think giving Jack Pierce (a genius, of course) credit for creating a different type of creature and thus changing the werewolf legend forever is a rather dangerous philosophy to maintain.  In other words, what I don't understand (yet have neither the desire nor the need to read about) is how a makeup artist can be credited with changing mythology -- when it was all inspired by a studio decision to feature Chaney in a costume that was both feasible and effective.  Basically, my point (and my lack of understanding) stems from the idea that studio politics, marketing, and branding can somehow create a sub-mythology within the world of werewolves -- when the decision goes back to making profits.  So, yes, Jack Pierce and Universal's decision changed how movie studios depict werewolves (making it more economically and technologically doable), but to say that they somehow altered the mythos is a hard pill to swallow.  In my opinion, they simply did what they had to do with the werewolf legend, and it worked.  It didn't inspire a whole new type of werewolf.  It was a film depiction and one interpretation of a werewolf, one that succeeded, and did not create a different type of werewolf, mythologically speaking. 

[Ghost]

When I think of the Wolf Man he is obviously a werewolf but not just any werewolf he is THE WOLF MAN. The name and look are distinct and iconic from any other depiction of werewolves. Hearing the Wolf Man immediately conjures images of the Universal Pictures classic film with Lon Chaney Jr. Just as Dracula is distinctly separate from any other vampire and the name usually is associated with Bela Lugosi and the take he did on the character. No one would dare say Frankenstein's monster was just a zombie, a re-animated corpse. He is Frankenstein a monster all his own in his own right. The same then for me is the Wolf Man. Distinct, unique, and separate from all other depictions of werewolves, his own monster, and a Universal icon. That being said I do like the theories postulated of werewolves either from being born as such or from being werewolves much longer may take on a more bestial form as a quadruped and that the Talbot character sees himself as being human and therefore is more human-like during his transformations as a werewolf and that he may progress or (digress as one sees it) into a more wolf-like form as time goes on and he loses more of his humanity and sanity over the murders he commits while transformed and evolves into more of a beast both as a person and when transformed.

[Ghost]

  It was a film depiction and one interpretation of a werewolf, one that succeeded, and did not create a different type of werewolf, mythologically speaking.

I disagree. I think however changes come about in the popular imagination they are still additions to the mythos. Authors who have added facets to vampire mythology are now mainstream in public consciousness and films however unsettling and unpalpitable (sparkling, etc.) they may seem to others or purists of the genera. Did it change the classical mythology of werewolves or vampires, no. Did it change the current way they are depicted in film and television yes. Lon Chaney Jr. with Pierce's or Westmore's  makeup did not change historical mythology about lycanthropes but it did change the way werewolves were depicted in film and was so iconic as to immediately envision the Universal Pictures film character when hearing the name the Wolf Man. That itself is an addition to the mythos and perhaps a different chapter than those that preceded it. Literary purists can scoff at how Dracula or Frankenstein's monster were portrayed on film. Historical purists can say even Stoker's novel had little to do with actual vampire folklore and mythos. However combined they all are facets and chapters of an evolving mythos for these type of monsters, characters, literary creations, film depictions, and costuming. Universal changed the way the world looks at monsters from film, to toys, to costumes, to public perception. That is definitely adding to the mythology. Just as there are differing mythologies from around the world dealing with the afterlife, monsters, or gods and differing opinions, it is also true here. The Greeks with their Zeus and Poseidon, the Romans with their Jupiter and Neptune. Let twilight fans have their sparkly vampires. Let Universal fans have the classic film monsters. Each to his own when dealing with fiction. Zombies have evolved considerably from their Voodoo origins to the undead monsters as they are now portrayed. Mythos is evolving.