Unlicensed vs Licensed Products

[george]

well George that may have been the norm a few years back but i assure that the studios are watching, especially Universal and marvel/disney and will come after you. maybe with just a C and D. maybe with something else. so, its a crap shoot.

I'm already talking to some of those folks about licensing for some of the new stuff we are working on.  But, having experienced what happened with GEO, it won't be like before.  That's guaranteed.  But I appreciate the warning.

[raycastile]

Ray, if folks think my posts here are long, they haven't seen anything.  If you are ever at WonderFest or Monsterpalooza or JerseyFest, come see me.  It'll blow your mind. 

I will be at Monsterpalooza and perhaps Wonderfest, if only for the Rondo ceremony.

[george]

Cool.  Stop by and see us.

[Dr Acula]

George
i bought a Geo Creature from the Black Lagoon boxed kit on ebay last year. Ive built it but aint got round to painting it. It was boxed in a black box, photo on front, body cast in vinyl, hands and feet in resin and parts of the base in metal. Is it a real Geo or a recast?
Spencer

[Dr. Madd]

As a sculptor in my own right- My work is often posted here- I do a lot of pieces based on movie monsters, but seldom actually based on the licensed materials. That's not to say I've never done one, but I prefer by far to do my own work, create my own monsters. Sure most of my work is based on classic monster movies, but in the end, I try to add my own twist to it.

[hammerfan]

George
i bought a Geo Creature from the Black Lagoon boxed kit on ebay last year. Ive built it but aint got round to painting it. It was boxed in a black box, photo on front, body cast in vinyl, hands and feet in resin and parts of the base in metal. Is it a real Geo or a recast?
Spencer

sounds original

[george]

That does sound like a GEO original.  Creature from the Black Lagoon was GEO's last vinyl kit and we used the mixed media (vinyl, resin and white metal) to try to make recasting the kit more difficult.  That made it more of a production hassle for us and, ultimately, didn't work.  Recasters did it anyway and just left out the metal parts.

[Spock]

Mmm I could be wrong but without the recasting issue there seems little interest in a debate solely about licensing

[george]

I think you are right, Spock.  It certainly seems that way.   But, as promised, I HAVE chimed in and am willing to continue to participate.  So, I hope folks don't think that is my fault.  I just  think that when you look at the harm unlicensed products have done to the buying and collecting interests of folks on UMA (t-shirts, posters, masks, photos, garage kits, and dolls), folks agree that there is little comparison to the harm done by recasting.  For a minute I had the impression that folks wanted unlicensed kits equated with recasts and that if recasts should be frowned upon, banned or whatever, so should ALL unlicensed products.  That would go far beyond garage kits. 

I was hoping folks really wouldn't want to go there.

GeoS

[Spock]

I think you are right, Spock.  It certainly seems that way.   But, as promised, I HAVE chimed in and am willing to continue to participate.  So, I hope folks don't think that is my fault.  I just  think that when you look at the harm unlicensed products have done to the buying and collecting interests of folks on UMA (t-shirts, posters, masks, photos, garage kits, and dolls), folks agree that there is little comparison to the harm done by recasting.  For a minute I had the impression that folks wanted unlicensed kits equated with recasts and that if recasts should be frowned upon, banned or whatever, so should ALL unlicensed products.  That would go far beyond garage kits. 

I was hoping folks really wouldn't want to go there.

GeoS

Thanks for responding  George. Although releasing unlicensed products is technically wrong, I, along with you and many others am guilty of it. But why do we do it George? Is it because we want to get rich quick. Or is it because of our love of the subjects we make. If I was making my figures to get rich I hope I live well into the 22nd century. I do custom figures (or dolls as some people say). I love what I do,  my customers love what I do, but I know one day I will no doubt, get nailed by one of the companies for it. When that day comes I will hold my hands up and say "fair cop." I think when they checked my business account though they would ask if I was f-in stupid. If licensing was easier and the cost reflected more on the numbers you produce and the profit margin I would happily license all my figures. I did license a couple through the Roy Ashton estate (some say it was through the back door) and felt better for it. But then I was dealing with a person and not a corporation.
I think the actual point when people are trying to make when equating recasts to licensing is that if you are doing something that is technically wrong in the first place, then technically you shouldnt get on moral high ground when wrong is done in return. Whether this is right or wrong will always be down to an individuals point of view. If some company get hold of my figures and reproduced them I would be sorely pissed but at the end of the day I dont think I would have room for complaint. These are just my personal views and reading through it I find that it is hard to discuss licensing without references to recasting. Apologies for that.

[george]

Spock: I hear you loud and clear.  But as you suggested in an earlier post, there doesn't seem to be much interest in the issue of unlicensed kits unless it is raised by folks as a justification for recasting.  If you read some of my comments from back when I owned GEOmetric, then you know I was very outspoken in favor of licensing.  However, I was not moralistic on the issue of getting licenses and I supported the folks who produced unlicensed kits by buying them.  Similarly, I'm not taking any moral stand on the issue of unlicensed kits today now that my views about licensing have done a 180 degree turn.  My change in opinion is the result of the experiences I had with licensing for GEOmetric, with a number of different studios, with having my LICENSED kits recast, and from what I learned from studio legal and licensing folks with whom I had maintained good relationship.  I am not preaching to anyone here.  All I've done it to express my opinion, to relate my experiences.  I'm not in the practice of giving unsolicited advice or telling folks how to conduct their lives...unless they find themselves in my courtroom.

Folks have to choose for themselves whether they want to produce unlicensed products whether they are dolls or figures like yours (nice stuff by the way), or garage kits or t-shirts, or masks or poster repros.  I just think having information is good for all of us.  Again, this thread began with a modeler demonstrating that he was misinformed about the impact of recasting and was misinformed about what kind of companies were damaged by recasting.  That was what I responded to and primarily because my company was referenced in his post.  I don't know if I would have responded at all if he had not mistakenly characterized Screamin', Horizon, and GEOmetric as large professional companies.  I wasn't sure that it would have made a difference to him or others if he knew that we were basically little garage operations that worked hard to deliver a professional-looking product.  But judging from the few pms and the barrage of emails I've gotten about this issue, it appears that the vast majority of folks here are concerned about the damage done by recasts and not concerned, for a variety of reasons, about the issue of unlicensed kits.  What has been suggested in all of this is that the unlicensed vs. licensed issue is not relevant to the recast issue.  I would again point out that folks who recast don't recast only unlicensed kits but original designs (Mike James/Azimuth Designs), licensed resin kits (Cellar Cast), licensed vinyl kits (Screamin', Horizon and GEO).  Since the recasters don't make a distinction about what they recast, why do we?  And remember, if we are disdaining unlicensed products, we are aren't just talking about garage kits; we are talking about unlcensed masks (check out some of the mask threads here from time to time), t-shirts (UMA did an unlicensed T-shirt a couple of years ago), poster repros. 

More importantly, in my opinion, the studios have made their positions clear: allow us to ignore you as you do your thing because when you force us to contact you about infringement, we will.  So, the real controversy here isn't about unlicensed stuff.  It's about how SOME anti-recast folks expressed their outrage in a manner that made life for the mods here, and a number of other members, miserable.  Toy Ranch, I feel you, man.  Terry and others, too.  A more respectful tone and presentation might have yielded a better discourse and resolution.

On the other hand, imagine spending $1500 on a Pumpkinhead license, $4500 on an incredible sculpture, $32,000 on the metal molds to produce that vinyl kit, and a bunch of money on a full-color booklet with a sequel story written by the original authors of the movie and original art by some of the best -known garage kit box artists at the time.  Then someone comes along, pays $125 for the kit, and then recasts it.  A lot of folks would be pretty emotional and pissed off about that.  That doesn't justify being disrespectful to the mods here or other folks.  But folks should be able to understand that even if they don't agree.

Not too hard to understand where both sides are coming from.

GeoS

P.S.  I used to do divorce court.     Was pretty good at getting folks to agree to get along.  Can that work here?

[Spock]

Spock: I hear you loud and clear.  But as you suggested in an earlier post, there doesn't seem to be much interest in the issue of unlicensed kits unless it is raised by folks as a justification for recasting.  If you read some of my comments from back when I owned GEOmetric, then you know I was very outspoken in favor of licensing.  However, I was not moralistic on the issue of getting licenses and I supported the folks who produced unlicensed kits by buying them.  Similarly, I'm not taking any moral stand on the issue of unlicensed kits today now that my views about licensing have done a 180 degree turn.  My change in opinion is the result of the experiences I had with licensing for GEOmetric, with a number of different studios, with having my LICENSED kits recast, and from what I learned from studio legal and licensing folks with whom I had maintained good relationship.  I am not preaching to anyone here.  All I've done it to express my opinion, to relate my experiences.  I'm not in the practice of giving unsolicited advice or telling folks how to conduct their lives...unless they find themselves in my courtroom.

Folks have to choose for themselves whether they want to produce unlicensed products whether they are dolls or figures like yours (nice stuff by the way), or garage kits or t-shirts, or masks or poster repros.  I just think having information is good for all of us.  Again, this thread began with a modeler demonstrating that he was misinformed about the impact of recasting and was misinformed about what kind of companies were damaged by recasting.  That was what I responded to and primarily because my company was referenced in his post.  I don't know if I would have responded at all if he had not mistakenly characterized Screamin', Horizon, and GEOmetric as large professional companies.  I wasn't sure that it would have made a difference to him or others if he knew that we were basically little garage operations that worked hard to deliver a professional-looking product.  But judging from the few pms and the barrage of emails I've gotten about this issue, it appears that the vast majority of folks here are concerned about the damage done by recasts and not concerned, for a variety of reasons, about the issue of unlicensed kits.  What has been suggested in all of this is that the unlicensed vs. licensed issue is not relevant to the recast issue.  I would again point out that folks who recast don't recast only unlicensed kits but original designs (Mike James/Azimuth Designs), licensed resin kits (Cellar Cast), licensed vinyl kits (Screamin', Horizon and GEO).  Since the recasters don't make a distinction about what they recast, why do we?  And remember, if we are disdaining unlicensed products, we are aren't just talking about garage kits; we are talking about unlcensed masks (check out some of the mask threads here from time to time), t-shirts (UMA did an unlicensed T-shirt a couple of years ago), poster repros. 

More importantly, in my opinion, the studios have made their positions clear: allow us to ignore you as you do your thing because when you force us to contact you about infringement, we will.  So, the real controversy here isn't about unlicensed stuff.  It's about how SOME anti-recast folks expressed their outrage in a manner that made life for the mods here, and a number of other members, miserable.  Toy Ranch, I feel you, man.  Terry and others, too.  A more respectful tone and presentation might have yielded a better discourse and resolution.

On the other hand, imagine spending $1500 on a Pumpkinhead license, $4500 on an incredible sculpture, $32,000 on the metal molds to produce that vinyl kit, and a bunch of money on a full-color booklet with a sequel story written by the original authors of the movie and original art by some of the best -known garage kit box artists at the time.  Then someone comes along, pays $125 for the kit, and then recasts it.  A lot of folks would be pretty emotional and pissed off about that.  That doesn't justify being disrespectful to the mods here or other folks.  But folks should be able to understand that even if they don't agree.

Not too hard to understand where both sides are coming from.

GeoS

P.S.  I used to do divorce court.     Was pretty good at getting folks to agree to get along.  Can that work here?

George
I am not actually referring to you about the high moral stance. If anybody has a right to complain about getting stung its folks like you, Danny at Screamin and Mike at Azimuth. I thnk you are right tho about the lack of interest in this thread as little seem interested in a discussion on licensing without recasting included. I have however made a post on the recasting issue, on Pag 6 and was wondering if you get time you could check it and use your knowledge to maybe answer some of the questions posed.

[Count_Zirock]

Last year I got into collecting prop replicas. My first piece was a Factory Entertainment Collector's Edition Ring of Dracula. A 100% licensed piece. My second was the Elite Edition of the same piece; again, 100% licensed. Then, I got a Haunted Studios Christopher Lee Dracula Ring. While it comes with a so-called Certificate of Authenticity, turns out the ring is unlicensed. Now, Christopher Lee used to sell copies of the ring himself, on his web site. He stopped in 2009... right around the time Factory got the license and Hammer Films was reborn.
Also in my collection are Dimensional Designs' Mummy Scarab Ring and Ring of Dracula: Ultimate Edition, and two versions of ManDrawsPictures' Medallion of Dracula. All of these are unlicensed. At the times they were made, no licensed versions were even available.
As a collector, I would prefer to buy licensed memorabilia, if it's available. If it's out of production, then there's eBay or other means. But, if only unlicensed "bootlegs" are available... well, seriously, how long are you going to wait for that "officially licensed" version of Zandor Vorkov's Dracula ring from Al Adamson's "Frankenstein vs. Dracula," when there's a guy selling a reasonably passable version at the local horror con?
And, as soon as it's available, yes, I plan on buying Factory's licensed Medallion of Dracula, too.

[Dr Acula]

That does sound like a GEO original.  Creature from the Black Lagoon was GEO's last vinyl kit and we used the mixed media (vinyl, resin and white metal) to try to make recasting the kit more difficult.  That made it more of a production hassle for us and, ultimately, didn't work.  Recasters did it anyway and just left out the metal parts.

Its a great piece george!

[hammerfan]

it is interesting that a certain resin kit producer who sold a lot of Universal unlicensed kits pulled them all off his website before people started to get C and D's  from Universal.  Then his website completely shutdown.  Coincidence? perhaps. Unfortunately that person created a ripple effect and many people were slammed by Universal. and Marvel and WB.  It was a very selfish thing to do, but very in character for that person.