Box o' Vinyl Recasts

[hammerfan]

BTW i was accused on recasting some kits out of retaliation. that is not true. I was aware that the kits were recast, but so was the owner of those kits. If that person had not isolated themself and become so adversarial perhaps I could have told them. But that was not the case.

[george]

In another thread, larry asked that I check page 6 of this thread and answer questions that he asked but to which he had not yet gotten an answer.  I could be wrong but I think this is the question.  I think I've answered all others directed to me. If I'm missing something. please let me know.

i think George is well aware of some of his acqauaintances who either did recasting or has sold recasts.  why is it ok to villify some and not others??

Larry,  I guess I thought it was a rhetorical question because I’ve never vilified anyone on any forum.  I don’t join campaigns to rouse the villagers and to torch storm the castle.  I’d rather be painting a model.  I'm pretty sure I answered all of your other questions on page 6 of this thread the best I could and I said " I will answer any question about what I’ve done and why....Nobody here has to explain why they do what they do but I’d really like to know why folks purchase recasts and why folks recast.  I haven’t heard anyone say why they engage in recasting.  I think that would be an interesting part of the other side of this issue.”

I went on to address your suggestion that I am aware that some of my acquaintances did recasting or sold recasts. I said:

“Larry: I don't know anything about any of my friends recasting kits or selling recasts.  There were folks from whom I purchased kits when I first got into the hobby in the early 80s who were selling recasts.  Like many folks here, I had no idea.  When I found out about them, I avoided them. I honestly don't know about this other history that you are talking about.  I must have missed an awful lot of stuff in the six years after I sold GEOmetric and before I got back into the hobby.  But, I am also not one who pays a lot of attention to board controversies unless someone brings me into it...like this thread about GEO kit recasts.” 

I have been pissed about folks recasting my companies’ kits and I’ve done the best I could to deal with those recasters directly without jumping on the forums for support from others.  And with the experiences I’ve had with recasters, I sure as hell wouldn’t associate with folks who do that.

No friend of mine is doing that!   Folks can make up their own minds about who they associate with and I’m not suggesting that anyone do or think as I do.

Again, I don’t go on the boards and participate in the flameouts and name-calling and all that stuff.  I don’t pay that much attention to the hobby forums except to get feedback about my kits, to get information out there about my kits, and, generally, to see what other folks are producing so I can avoid doing what some other producer has already done.
 
Larry, if you have asked some other question that I have not answered, let me know.

GeoS

[hammerfan]

actually I think Spock asked you reply to his post, but im glad you replied to mine. Im not saying that you villify anyone, but there sure are those out there who do. Perhps you dont knwo that some peopel you assoiciate with have doen recasting and bought recasts. I could list them here, and I know either thru direct knowledge or having them approach me to buy a recast. In fact one very well known model maker approached me about recasting one of the Janus kits, because they thought they would sell well as he originals go for hight prices.  I declined mostly because I knwo John U and would do that to him.  one of the major styrene kit kit makers out there now used to bring in knock offs of the 1:1 scale Kaiyodo gremlin and  hotizon creature and frankenstein recasts from Korea. I knw this because he offered them to me. soem of his confederates were welling them at Chiller. this i know becasue i was in the table behind them, LOL. I asked them why they were selling recasts and they said How do you knwo they are recasts?  well the fact that they were bagged and not boxed, and the fact that they had cases of them, which doesnt seem likely for two rare kits. shall I name names??  to what end?  ill be asked to prove soemthing that happened 10 -12 years ago. plus frankly even if I had a smoking gun, the majority of the mouth breathers out there who think these guys are beyond such things would never believe it.

[MonsterBoy7]

   HI, me again. 

Hammer before you go on listing any names, do you think you can answer the 3 questions I had listed in my latest post. I am just trying real hard to understand the motives and rewards for this whole reason to "RECAST" out of production kits,and to recast another producers kits that is still in production?

Thank you

[george]

Larry: Thanks for clearing up my mistake about Spock's question.  I will get back to Spock's questions but give me a little time.  My kids and I are doing stuff today.  Hope to respond tomorrow sometime. 

Anyone doing what you described, Larry, would not have let me see that because if they knew me, they would have known that I'd have gone right to my friends at Horizon and told them about it...which I did on a number of occasions when I came across those recasts.  Those who shared my attitude about that got branded "resin police".  Friends of mine were like-minded and would not have done that unless they did so while hiding it from me.  At the shows, I was at my table most of the time.  I'd walk around, when I could, to check out other folks' stuff and to visit with folks.  I tried to acquaint myself with as many folks as possible because I was looking to sell GEO kits.  But, I'd be very surprised to learn that folks I hung with, folks who were friends of mine, did that.


Spock: Give me some time to get to your questions.  I WILL get to them.

GeoS

[hammerfan]

one of the main reasons I did out of production kits (which were all foriegn BTW) was that people requested them from me. They knew i had some rare OOP stuff from japan because i used to be stationed there. as for in production kits, do my knowlege i dotn recall even doing that. and I didnt say i would  name names, I did say I could be that it would be a waste of time. as was posted earlier by Toy Ranch you arent going to sway peoples beliefs. they already believe what they believe.  frankly I dont care what people do, I have my own business and I try to mind it.

[hammerfan]

BTW montsterboy  you like to ask questions but dont seem willing to offer much but playing  devils advocate. do you have a dog in this fight??

[Hepcat]

Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song....

No. I'm an audiophile. I'm opposed to not only illegal downloads, I'm opposed to any and all lossy downloads. I think that whoever invented the concept of downloading music onto computers should be given a sound beating and then jailed as a first warning.

[george]

Could i just ask what actually makes a recaster? We all know about how George and Geometric were, unfortunately, hit by the big boys like Sol and Elfin back in the Garage Kit heyday but, as any major manafacturing company will tell you, you are always at risk from cheap Asian knock offs. Just ask the likes of Gucci and Rolex.
What I am more interested in is what actaully makes good ole boy homegrown recaster?
If, lets say, a dealer sells a kit to a customer and when the customer gets the kit it is missing a hand or something, The customer contacts the dealer who has one kit left in but its for his own collection. So rather than offer the customer the hand from his own kit or go through the hassle of contacting the kit producer, the dealer offers to cast up a hand for a replacement. Does this make thus said dealer a recaster?
What if a customer buys a kit and decides he wants extra parts for an elaborate diorama. Again, rather than contact the kit producer and spend a few extra $$$ with the producer he decides to cast his own. Does this make him a recaster?
What if I guy has an old kit that is missing the decals but someone offers to scan and print some decals for him, does this make the guy who offers the decals a recaster?
If someone picks up some resin figures at a flea market or such and lists them on Ebay and finds out they are copies. But he has paid money for them and wants to get his money back. Does this make him a recaster.
I am just interested to what makes a full blown recaster or, if like with so many things, there are vast gray areas depending on who you know.

On another note I have seen the words "healing process" used. Now, Count Fritz has rightly banned recasts from his upcoming Resintopia shows but I also think certain folk have, due to alledged or factual accounts, of recasting been refused tables as well. Now Fritz is perfectly in his rights to do this but shouldn't shows such as this (and Fritz I am in no, way, shape or form trying to tell you how to run a show but just offering a suggestion) and Wonderfest be the place where both sides of the fence can get together and calmly and reasonably put old ghosts to rest. Only then can the healing process truly begin. Until people actually stop with a lot of  hatred, he did that, he's a devil scenario that is so rife on a lot of the hobby bulletin boards and hold out an olive branch I dont think there will ever be a resolution to domestic recasting
As with Asian recasting, that is something you will always have to live with, as will the major clothes, watch and other manafacturing companies.

Spock: Lots of good questions.  Some are tough questions and I think reasonable people might disagree on the answers.  I think there are some cases that are pretty clear.

So, here is my opinion:  If you buy my kit, pop a mold off it and sell copies to other folks, I'd certainly have a problem with that.  You'd feel the same way if I did that to your kit, right?

If you buy my kit, pop a mold off it and give copies to other folks, I'm not happy about that.  You'd feel the same way, right?  But, frankly, if you had come to me and said, "my three buddies and I want this kit.  Can you give me a deal if I buy  four of them?"  I'd say hell yeah.  I do that all the time.  I have customers that do just that on every kit we release because they paint for clients who want my stuff.  So, I give them a nice discount and make four sales.  Everybody is happy.

If you are thinking about buying my kit, popping a mold off it and making copies for yourself for a diorama or just because you want to have two or three copies for yourself, I'd say ask me about giving you a deal for buying three or four kits.  You'd be better off taking the money you would otherwise spend on molding and casting materials and, instead, using it to buy the two or three copies you need for your diorama.  Not to mention the fact that you'll save the time it will take to make the molds and castings. Plus, my castings are going to be better than yours.  Everybody is happy.

I don't sell decals and don't know how those folks would respond.  I have no idea how much decals might cost a collector but I'd prefer to support the little guy who is making those decals.  I think the way to answer all of your questions is to put yourself in the position of the person whose product is being copied.  How would you feel?   What would you like folks to do in that situation?

The Ebay situation? I used to collect racist artifacts and African carvings, some cheap and some expensive.  I was careful about determining whether the item was authentic because there are a lot of fakes and repros of this stuff.  When I got duped into buying a couple of fakes, I contacted the seller and got my money back.  Early on in my collecting, there were a couple of times I wasn't so vigilant, made the purchase (at an antiques store), and then learned it was a fake. I was bummed and pissed.  That is my fault.  I would not turn around and sell it.  But, that's just how I see it.  Other folks might feel differently.  If I didn't do my homework before buying an item, lesson learned. 

Most important in answering your questions: how would you feel, Spock, if someone was doing this with your products? Folks have to decide these things for themselves.  There isn't going to be some code of conduct that everyone adheres to under threat of banishment.

Your last point about healing is difficult because this is clearly so emotional an issue for lots of folks.  The emotion around it has spilled over to make the UMA mods crazy.   I mean some of the mods, even in this thread, have referred to some folks here with the unflattering moniker, "resin kamikazes".  I'm not a resin kamikaze, a "resin nazi" or "the resin police".  But I understand the mods comments about the discourse in a previous recasting thread being neither productive nor respectful.   Maybe healing starts with having some respectful communicaton about issues and between folks who have been at odds about issues.  Maybe RedKing has started that here.
 
I don't have any other answers for you about healing.  That's up to the folks who have all the hostility toward each other.  I'm not involved in all that.

So, if I can suggest something by way of my experience as a judge dealing with opposing parties because that is what I do for a living, get folks to reach an agreement so we don't have to go to trial.  In most cases I handle, folks want to get out of crisis and they say, "Judge, tell me what I have to do to get out of this mess."  If you committed a crime, you have to 'fess up, do your time or do probation and then you are done with it.  If you violated some civil law, you pay the money or stop doing what you have been doing and you are done with it.  In child protection cases, you do these programs the social workers tell you to do and you are done with it.
 
But in family/divorce cases, many of the folks are so angry that they don't want to be out of the mess.  They are so angry and emotional that what they most want is to hurt or anger or otherwise mess with the other party.  They'll pay thousands of dollars that they can't afford, and spend a whole bunch of time thinking about how to take a shot at the other party.  I take the time to point that out to them and sometimes, they get it and then move on.  Sometimes, they are just too wrapped up in it and they and their kids lose.

Sounds like some of that might be going on here.  For me, life is too short to be all pissed off about stuff going on in a hobby that is all about fun.  That stuff doesn't interest me.  I'd rather be painting a kit.

GeoS

[lblambert]

But in family/divorce cases, many of the folks are so angry that they don't want to be out of the mess.  They are so angry and emotional that what they most want is to hurt or anger or otherwise mess with the other party.  They'll pay thousands of dollars that they can't afford, and spend a whole bunch of time thinking about how to take a shot at the other party.  I take the time to point that out to them and sometimes, they get it and then move on.  Sometimes, they are just too wrapped up in it and they and their kids lose.

Sounds like some of that might be going on here.  For me, life is too short to be all pissed off about stuff going on in a hobby that is all about fun.  That stuff doesn't interest me.  I'd rather be painting a kit.

I've been following this thread but haven't chipped in, but I have to pipe in here and say I think you hit the nail on the head George. This recasting debate has always struck me as an ugly divorce case...emotionally driven with both sides wanting only to punish the other with no consideration to any other damage being caused (by the way, this is why I no longer practice family law). People will gladly spend $2000 to fight over a $100 vacuum cleaner just to make sure their ex doesn't get it. The same goes for the recasting issue...people get so emotionally invested in their own agendas they lose sight as to the effect that their squabble has on the hobby overall. This type of divisive issue is no good for the hobby and, at the end of the day, nobody wins. Unfortunately I don't see the time coming anytime soon where those most involved in perpetuating this dischord will even try to see the perspective of anyone who feels different than them, let alone engage in any type of dialogue to mend the hobby.     
 

[george]

Thanks, lblambert.  If other folks agree with that, maybe we need to acknowledge that there isn't much more to say that will be productive.  Although, 'd still like to hear from folks about why they engaged in recasting and I'd like to know why folks have knowlngly purchased them.   And I'm hoping to hear from Spock about my responses to his questions about recasting.

I do think some good has come of this.  if nothing else, we have informed some folks about the issue.  But we have also had one person step up and admit to recasting.  We had folks talk about what they think of recasting.  We had folks ask questions to get more information.  We had folks talk about how they were impacted by recasting.  I think the discussion has been respectful and it would be disappointing for it to devolve into name-calling, finger-pointing and other personal stuff that is irrelevant to the discussion.

I think it is pretty clear that when you separate the issue of unlicensed products from the issue of recasts, folks have to agree that these are two distinct issues. Their posts clearly indicate in this thread and in the companion thread that the issue of unlicensed kits is separate from the issue of recasting.  We have all learned something here. 

No less important is the fact that this discussion has, for the most part, been conducted with respect.  I'd like to see the discussion end before it sinks to what the mods thought it might.

My goal was to respond to RedKing's initial post and for folks to understand more clearly the damage recasting has done to the hobby, generally, and to one GK company specifically.  I promised the mods I'd hang in here and respond to posts but I do have a life (unlike the mods who get paid a ton of money and have nothing else to do in life but monitor posts here)  .  I appreciate how folks have responded here.

GeoS

[lblambert]

I'd like to know why folks have knowlngly purchased them. 

I'll answer this as I have knowingly purchased one.  I have never built a vinyl kit and spent over $200 on a real Billiken Frankenstein. I wanted to practice cutting vinyl and also try different paint schemes. Rather than risk screwing up and making a mistake with my real Billiken, I picked up a $15 vinyl recast from Thailand. I won't be building it or selling it...just using it to try a few things for the first time then chucking it.   

[Hepcat]

BTW montsterboy  you like to ask questions but dont seem willing to offer much but playing  devils advocate. do you have a dog in this fight??

Curious indeed. Monsterboy registered in August 2009 and up until last week had a whopping total of nine posts. His interest in this forum therefore appeared to be casual at best.

Since the recasting issue was raised, however, he quickly has nine more posts. Somehow he just doesn't appear to be an arm's length observer on the subject.

[george]

lblambert, thanks for that response about the recast you bought.  And, Larry, thanks for your response, too, about why you recasted kits.  I have to say, again, you deserve some props for that admission.  While I don't follow the forums that closely, especially when insults and allegations start flying, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone actually admit, on line or in a forum, to recasting.  I'm hoping to hear from others here who have engaged in recasting and who have knowingly purchased recasts.  I'd love to know why and whether any of this discussion has changed how they view the issue.

Fellas,  I'd appreciate it if you would keep your posts in this thread on the subject of recasting.  And Hepcat, Moderator Terry in the companion thread to this one admonished Monsterboy and Larry for asking about names.  Your last comment seems to be pushing this thread toward the tone folks here have complained about.  It's been a positive and informative discussion so far.  Hoping you three will respect that and keep it that way.  Thanks, guys.

GeoS

[hammerfan]

Curious indeed. Monsterboy registered in August 2009 and since that time has had a whopping total of nine posts. His interest in this forum would therefore appear to be casual at best.

Since the recasting issue was raised, however, he quickly has nine more posts. Somehow he just doesn't appear to be an arm's length observer on the subject.

you do make an interesting point Hepcat. But troll behaviour is very easily spotted.