Author Topic: Box o' Vinyl Recasts  (Read 24658 times)

Scatter

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2012, 06:17:40 PM »
Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

Iíd like to toss in a point that hasnít been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesnít sell then itís going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isnít a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  Iíve produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I havenít even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, Iíve produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didnít sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If youíre lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  Itís a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And Iíd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  Iíve seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector whoís has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but thatís kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because theyíve been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.

I'm far, FAR more vehemently against re-casting personally, because of the reasons you and George have cited. It literally KILLS businesses and livelihoods.
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Toy Ranch

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2012, 06:38:52 PM »
Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

Iíd like to toss in a point that hasnít been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesnít sell then itís going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isnít a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  Iíve produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I havenít even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, Iíve produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didnít sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If youíre lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  Itís a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And Iíd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  Iíve seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector whoís has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but thatís kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because theyíve been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.

Very true.  But not everyone cares.  Some do, others don't.  The ones that don't care, you can't make them care.  And you can't stop recasts from happening, either.  Not everyone who buys kits cares about the hobby, or whether someone makes more in the future, or any of it. 

Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song, or movie, or fudged on your taxes, or have you had one more beer than you should have before you got in the car and drove, or have you grabbed a few bites off someone's plate at a buffet, or carried a box of candy into a movie, or taken a pen home from work?  It's all relative, but if you've done ANY of those things (or lots of other things that I didn't mention), someone somewhere CARES.  That doesn't mean you care.  It doesn't mean that you SHOULD care. 

I totally understand and agree with what you just said, but you can't stop it from happening.  And I will just about guarantee that of the six kits of yours that have been recast, at least one or two have been recast to spite you, because you pissed someone off.  I'm not saying that makes it right for them to have recast your kit, but if you look at all the trouble that has gone down in the garage kit hobby over the years, think about how it might have been different, if it had been handled differently.  Then think about how to make it different in the future. 

MonsterBoy7

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2012, 06:42:56 PM »
   Scatter: That is a great post and very true in my eyes. Which is leading into my next statement. If everyone just obeyed the same rules then I believe there would never be a problem between producers. One rule for all.

   Hammer: I see you mentioned that you have produced over 100 resin kits? Wow, that is a lot. Are they all unlicensed or just a few? How many times would you estimate you have recasted other kits?

   Wonderfest it seems is the main show of the Resin Hobby? And if they allowed recasting how and why would they allow these people to set up there to sell these recasts if they are so against it? How many recasters would you say are present compared to normal dealers? Do you still attend this show and if not is it because the recasting has gotten so bad that you think there is too much hypcoracy?

   How about Model Magazines? I have read about one of the magazines ( I cannot remember which one it was? Sorry getting old.) That they used to produce a model show and they would allow recasters to sell out in the open like a legit dealer? Is this also true?Does this go on at Wonderfest also when you speak of recasting being there?

    As for unlicensed or not unlicensed there are alot of things that would not be around to collect if the only thing people would participate in was only licensed in the Monster Collectibles World? Do you guys feel the same way?
   

hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2012, 07:20:56 PM »
i would say i havent recasted much at all. and lately not at all. As for the kits I produce some were licensed like my ginger lynn and tura satana and the nestler stuff. some were orignal and some were IP infringement.  does that clear things up for you Scott. err monsterboy?  as for wonderfest I stopped doing it becasue it is getting quite expensive to do once you add in cost of the table , hotel, gas, food at al. plus a 7 hour drive each way. and mostly I lost interest in that show because most of the people I used to hang out with dont bother foing any more. They were people who were instrumental in the hobby but have lost interest in it over the years since it became money driven vs hobby driven. plus in my opinion the show has been highjacked certain folks who seem to think they have a rightiousness that others dont have.  LOL. which is a joke indeed. 
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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2012, 07:31:44 PM »
as for that show you mentioned I assume you mean the REZNHEDZ shows in chicago. Yes indeed some recasts were sold there and by the same person who sold them for years at wonderfest and chiller without any resistance. His mistake was he recasted a kit by a certain magazine owner who raised proper hell about it.  I was even questioned by said owner if I was involved with recasting the kit. I was not, but it didnt matter becasue I was accused of doing that. I find it quite amusing that some of the very peopel who used to buy recasts from this person where the ones who turned on him and got him kicked out of chiller and wonderfest. That is the case. take it as you will.
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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2012, 07:47:27 PM »
what id really like to know after Johns eloquence on the evils of recasting is why did he recast?  and why wont he admit it?? i admit it. i think George is well aware of some of his acqauaintances who either did recasting or has sold recasts.  why is it ok to villify some and not others?? 
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MonsterBoy7

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2012, 08:13:04 PM »
Hammer: I do not know this history you speak of with a certain recaster or what his name is but I can tell you that my name is not Scott. It is Lou.

You have said that you did do a licensed kit of Ginger Lynn and Tura Santana and one other. So if you did over 100 resin kits then you minus the licensed ones that leaves about 90% of your kits as unlicensed.

I am just trying to understand your point of view when you were speaking with George about the fact that he did  unlicensed kits that were recasted. I can understand his point of view and you might not agree with his statments but why is it different for you if you were doing the same exact thing?

 I am not sure how many kits Geometric has done when Mr. George owned it but for someone that has done over 100 unlicensed kits you seem to have alot more then he was speaking of. How many times have you been recasted?

george

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2012, 08:45:50 PM »
Just so itís clear, in his statement about hypocrisy, Larry is NOT suggesting that I have ever engaged in recasting.  I never have and never will.  I didn't know at first that you, Hammerfan, were Larry Burbridge.  Not that it matters because my responses to your questions and comments would have been no different.  I have to say, Larry, that you impressed me today by stepping up and admitting that you have engaged in recasting.  There are lots of folks who would not have done so.  You get some props for that.  That must have taken some courage to do that because folks opposed to recasting might very well jump all over you but Iím hoping that doesnít happen.  That doesnít do anyone any good.  Iíd like this discussion to remains respectful and civil.

I really appreciate the intelligent discussion we have had on this issue. Terry didn't think it could be done.  Terry, I have won that bet!   Again, I thank UMA and ALL of the comments here.  I think we have all been given a lot to think about, regardless of where you sit on the issue.  What I think is most important is not about trying to force anyone to change their views.  At least that is not the case for me.  This thread started because RedKing was given a bunch of recasts and, being unfamiliar with how they've impacted GK, thought that those recasts didn't do any harm.  He thought the original kits that had been recasted were produced by big professional companies.  I thought he, and others who might feel that way, might have a different view if they had all of the facts.  To me, getting folks that information is what is important because it allows folks to make up their own minds and to do so intelligently, i.e., having all the facts.  I think it is safe to say that RedKing thinks a bit differently about recasts now that he knows more of the story behind them.  Sounds like that might be true for other commentators in this thread.

I agree with Toy Ranch that some folks aren't going to be persuaded to change their view regardless of which side of the issue they agree with.  That's not the point.  Larry feels I'm being moralistic or talking down at folks but all I've done here is to respond to Redking's initial post and to the questions and comments of other posts.  Larry and I go way back to the days when he was engaging in recasting.  He admitted it to me then and I talked TO HIM (not to a bunch of other folks) about how I felt about it.  Sometime after that, he called and asked GEOmetric to support a show that he was organizing in my hometown of Chicago.  GEO supported the show and had a great time.  My point here is that I will support and defend anybody that I think is doing something positive for the hobby.  If I think you are doing wrong, Iíll tell you that.  But, Iím not one for going public with stuff unless it matters to me and the private approach doesnít work. Regardless of how he feels about me, Larry can vouch for that.

I also agree with Toy Ranch (if I understand his point) that the hostile tone and approach some folks have brought to past UMA discussions of this issue pissed folks off and may have been the motivation for them to recast some of the kits they recasted.  But I am really talking about the larger issue of recasting and the damage it has done to the hobby.  Folks in Hong Kong and Korea and Thailand didnít recast our Alien, Predator,  Cyclops, Pumpkinhead, Medusa, Ripley, King Kong and Star Trek kits (all licensed!) because they were pissed off at GEOmetric.  Diamond Comic Distributors didnít distribute cheap recasts of our vinyl kits kits all over Europe because they were pissed off at us.  The guy in Pennsylvania didnít bootleg our Trek kits because he was pissed off at GEO.   They all did this because they thought it was an easy way to make money off the planning, engineering, sculpting, separating, master molding, and production molding GEO did.  We spent tens of thousands on all that.  The recasters bought one vinyl casting and popped a mold off of it. 

And by the way, the customers of that Pennsylvania recaster werenít buying those resin recasts because they were more affordable than the original kits; his resin recasts were the same price as our vinyl kits and considerably inferior in quality.   His customers had no idea they were recasts.  The GEO logo remained on the recast.
That isnít being moralistic.  Themís the facts.

I will answer any question about what Iíve done and why.  So, how about this?   If you (any of you) are going to engage in recasting, be honest about it; let potential customers know ďIím selling you a recast of ABC Companyís kit.Ē And let them decide if thatís what they want to support.  If you donít care if you get a recast, Iíd like to hear the reasons behind it.  Maybe Iíll learn something.  Nobody here has to explain why they do what they do but Iíd really like to know why folks purchase recasts and why folks recast.  I havenít heard anyone say why they engage in recasting.  I think that would be an interesting part of the other side of this issue.

Larry: I don't know anything about any of my friends recasting kits or selling recasts.  There were folks from whom I purchased kits when I first got into the hobby in the early 80s who were selling recasts.  Like many folks here, I had no idea.  When I found out about them, I avoided them. I honestly don't know about this other history that you are talking about.  I must have missed an awful lot of stuff in the six years after I sold GEOmetric and before I got back into the hobby.  But, I am also not one who pays a lot of attention to board controversies unless someone brings me into it...like this thread about GEO kit recasts.  I'm too busy with three teenagers, my real job, my woman, and my company's kits.

Monsterboy Lou: All of the GEO kits that were recast were licensed.

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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2012, 09:38:42 PM »
Hammer: I do not know this history you speak of with a certain recaster or what his name is but I can tell you that my name is not Scott. It is Lou.

You have said that you did do a licensed kit of Ginger Lynn and Tura Santana and one other. So if you did over 100 resin kits then you minus the licensed ones that leaves about 90% of your kits as unlicensed.

I am just trying to understand your point of view when you were speaking with George about the fact that he did  unlicensed kits that were recasted. I can understand his point of view and you might not agree with his statments but why is it different for you if you were doing the same exact thing?

 I am not sure how many kits Geometric has done when Mr. George owned it but for someone that has done over 100 unlicensed kits you seem to have alot more then he was speaking of. How many times have you been recasted?




ive been recasted several times  not much to do about it except confront the recaster. as far as me getting on george, ive knwon George a long time and he knows where im comign from.    I dont  care if people recast not do i care if they   do uunlicensed kits. But I dotn like people getting a superior attitiude when they have doen one or the other or both.
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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2012, 09:45:22 PM »
I never said george recasted, so that is clear. I dotn think he would. But there are some foks here who certainly have and seem not willing to admit it. frankly the hobby has changed so much that I dotn have the time to devote to it that i used too. as far as recasting, i havent even had time to put out some original stuff that ive had shelved for several years.  never mind recasting  anything. It seems all therecasts are comign from asia way now.  the hobby started there, makes sense that they might end it too...
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Spock

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2012, 10:36:30 PM »
Could i just ask what actually makes a recaster? We all know about how George and Geometric were, unfortunately, hit by the big boys like Sol and Elfin back in the Garage Kit heyday but, as any major manafacturing company will tell you, you are always at risk from cheap Asian knock offs. Just ask the likes of Gucci and Rolex.
What I am more interested in is what actaully makes good ole boy homegrown recaster?
If, lets say, a dealer sells a kit to a customer and when the customer gets the kit it is missing a hand or something, The customer contacts the dealer who has one kit left in but its for his own collection. So rather than offer the customer the hand from his own kit or go through the hassle of contacting the kit producer, the dealer offers to cast up a hand for a replacement. Does this make thus said dealer a recaster?
What if a customer buys a kit and decides he wants extra parts for an elaborate diorama. Again, rather than contact the kit producer and spend a few extra $$$ with the producer he decides to cast his own. Does this make him a recaster?
What if I guy has an old kit that is missing the decals but someone offers to scan and print some decals for him, does this make the guy who offers the decals a recaster?
If someone picks up some resin figures at a flea market or such and lists them on Ebay and finds out they are copies. But he has paid money for them and wants to get his money back. Does this make him a recaster.
I am just interested to what makes a full blown recaster or, if like with so many things, there are vast gray areas depending on who you know.

On another note I have seen the words "healing process" used. Now, Count Fritz has rightly banned recasts from his upcoming Resintopia shows but I also think certain folk have, due to alledged or factual accounts, of recasting been refused tables as well. Now Fritz is perfectly in his rights to do this but shouldn't shows such as this (and Fritz I am in no, way, shape or form trying to tell you how to run a show but just offering a suggestion) and Wonderfest be the place where both sides of the fence can get together and calmly and reasonably put old ghosts to rest. Only then can the healing process truly begin. Until people actually stop with a lot of  hatred, he did that, he's a devil scenario that is so rife on a lot of the hobby bulletin boards and hold out an olive branch I dont think there will ever be a resolution to domestic recasting
As with Asian recasting, that is something you will always have to live with, as will the major clothes, watch and other manafacturing companies.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 10:59:12 PM by Spock »

monsterphile

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2012, 10:53:10 PM »
I think this discussion overall has been a positive thing.  Aas Bobby said, warring factions may never agree to disagree, but others may come to their own conclusions and make peace with their views. 

Within the hobby, I think there's another conflict, although not necessarily one with animosity.  Someone mentioned about people buying  kits as an investment/collectable).  That person likes that the kit is sold out and their purchase has gone up in value.  Next comes the guy who just wants to make the model.  If the model is out of production and sales of them secondhand are cost prohibitive, he's out of luck when it comes to making one. 

Now we have a guy with one that doesn't use it and another guy who wants one but can't get one.  He with the empty arms might then be tempted to go for a recast.  So, in such a situation, the collector may indirectly hurt the hobby as well.  In a perfect world, the original maker would re-release his kit every few years as demand reached a sufficient level. 

Rob 

michblk

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2012, 11:06:21 PM »
Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song, or movie, or fudged on your taxes, or have you had one more beer than you should have before you got in the car and drove, or have you grabbed a few bites off someone's plate at a buffet, or carried a box of candy into a movie, or taken a pen home from work?

Are you following me Bobby?   ;D

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Dr. Madd

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2012, 02:51:01 AM »
Not to blast this entire discussion with a scattergun, but I'll say this and say no more on the matter- I Promised our mod that I would not stir this pot and I have no intention to stir this pot.

Why not just merely ignore the whole recast debate altogether and just enjoy the assembled models, without mentioning recasting yay or nay. This whole debate is devisive.
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george

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2012, 09:07:00 AM »
Dr. Madd: I appreciate you "not stirring the pot" if that means getting the thread off topic and away from the civil tone folks have used here. Getting the opinion you expressed in your post is just as informative as the other posts.  And I think all this information is a good thing. 

Suppose you collected original classic movie posters.  Wouldn't you want to know that there are folks selling repros of those posters?   I think most folks would want to know so that , if they cared about it, they wouldn't be fooled into spending original poster money on a counterfeit. 

Some folks might not care about that.  They just want to have that piece of art in their collection but they, too, benefit from that info because they wouldn't knowingly pay as much for a counterfeit as they would for an original. 

As has become apparent in this thread and from the PMs I've been getting, a lot of folks are/were completely unaware of recasts or the the impact of recasts or the difference between the quality of an original and the quality of a recast  RedKing and I have communicated outside of this thread and I will be sending him an original GEO Cyclops so he can see the difference.  When I compared an original GEO vinyl kit to its vinyl recast (our Predator, Alien, Pumpkinhead, Cyclops and Medusa), I was surprised how different they are.  RedKing wrote to me and said "I can see the lack of detail in many spots on all of them as well as alot of parts that are terribly mishapen and will need major work if and when i ever decide to actually put them together."  As a modeler, I'd definitely want to know that because I don't enjoy kit building as much as I enjoy kit painting. 

It is obvious from the number of views and comments here that there are lots of folks interested in this subject.  I, for one, really appreciate the moderators having given us the opportunity to present our varying perspectives on the issue, perspectives  that I'm sure a lot of folks were not aware of.  I think the discussion has been informative, certainly has for me, and I'm hoping folks walk away from this thread a bit more informed.  There are still a few things I'd like to know about it.

But I also understand that there are lots of folks completely uninterested in, or tired of, or pissed about the whole recast discussion.  By now everyone knows that this thread is entitled "Box o' Vinyl Recasts".  If they get tired of it, they can easily do exactly what I'll do when I get tired of it...ignore it like I do so many other threads here that don't interest me.

This thing is simply about getting info out there. 

GeoS
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