Box o' Vinyl Recasts

[hammerfan]

Forgive me Terry if I misunderstood. Ive thought that the recasting debacle was off limits here so I was surprised to see it revived again.  it does seem odd though that it was a dead subject for so long and then becomes a live one when George has an opinion. Mea culpa if that was percieved as being given special treatment.

[Dr Acula]

Hepcat that is an amazing collection there! I dont know how you manage to keep all those kits boxed! Id have em opened and painted! lol

[Hepcat]

I dont know how you manage to keep all those kits boxed! Id have em opened and painted! lol

I'd regard that as vandalism. I can build reissues.

[fmofmpls]

Forgive me Terry if I misunderstood. Ive thought that the recasting debacle was off limits here so I was surprised to see it revived again.  it does seem odd though that it was a dead subject for so long and then becomes a live one when George has an opinion. Mea culpa if that was percieved as being given special treatment.

The following text is from an earlier post of mine here at this thread explaining my reason for unlocking this thread:

Once a thread is locked it usually stays locked. A few days ago I received a call from a good friend of mine - George Stephenson. George is the former, and original owner, of GeoMetric Designs - a model kit company originating here in Minneapolis. George and I go way back. I have a lot of respect for George. George had expressed his disappointment in my locking this thread. He felt it was a missed opportunity for a "recast" discussion that could have possibly been constructive. Imagine that ... a discussion about recasts that could actually have a good outcome! Wow, I wondered what George had been smoking. The history here at UMA in regards to the flammable topic of recasting has been anything but constructive. In fact, its been nothing but destructive. Destructive to the point where the entire forum almost explodes in anger. Henceforth, our decision to typically squash such discussions like a disease ridden housefly. We refuse to allow such fires to burn down our community. We've worked too hard to build it up. And besides, its not our job, and never will be, to police and enforce the model kit community. We administrate our forum to our own Terms Of Service. Those our the rules of which we moderate from and those are the rules we enforce. With that having been said, I fully realize there are plenty of individuals who don't care for our rules. They feel we condone recasting simply because we adhere to our set of rules and not theirs. They are frustrated when we don't ban somebody they ask us too. They seem to want to run our forum according to their rules and needs. And in turn, they've become more disruptive than the folks they are trying to exterminate. And so the story goes ... again and again and again.

BUT .. I have been asked for an opportunity to have a calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion on this subject. Imagine that. Are such things possible? Well, I guess we'll find out. I've decided to grant George his request. The discussion is open for just that - calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion. And I ask that you please adhere to that tone. Let's see if we can actually break new ground here without breaking our forum and somebody's skull in the process?

[fmofmpls]

I would also like to point out that unlocking this thread wasn't done with the intention of a creating a "witch hunt."  And I know that wasn't any part of George's agenda either. We both agreed that unlocking this thread just might be the first small step in a healing process that is long overdue. This can only be obtained through calm and rational reasoning - something of which has been missing from all previous resin disruptions, I mean discussions, in the past. And both sides of the battle are to blame. I repeat .. BOTH SIDES OF THE BATTLE ARE TO BLAME. This is what many times leads the UMA to just locking threads and saying "to hell with it." Name calling, threats, flaming remarks, and outright juvenile behavior doesn't make for a healthy community. And I won't have it.

So .. I encourage the discussions to continue in a respectful and courteous manner. Only then can true progress be made and healing begin. Ask questions, feel free to express opinions, but please do so with the respect and understanding of others. It's not asking for a lot, I feel.

[hammerfan]

here's a thought. If you take a stand against recasting, should you attend a model kit show where recasts are sold?  case in point wonderfest. which while it states that they take a stance against selling recasts actually do a poor job of inforcing it. Ive seen numerous recasts being sold there and no one seems to bat an eye. yes certain folks have been banned for selling there, even more ironically that they had been selling recasts there for years without any problem. This was true of Chiller too, although i cant say if anyone even sells kits at Chiller anymore as I havent bothered going in years. I know the new Resintopia show is taking a stand against recasts at least per their promoter Count Fritz. I do know some people who will be going to that show and will be able to verify if they are really inforcing that policy or if they are just offering lip service to the powers  that be.

[george]

I agree with Larry that folks should speak up about a recast being sold at conventions, in a magazine, on a forum, on eBay.  But, if you don't show up and speak up, the recasters just keep getting away with it.  Sounds to me like Larry is advocating that we speak out on the issue of recasts at conventions and I agree with that but let's keep it respectful and productive like we have here.

I attend WonderFest every year and and a few other shows.  I have no doubt that folks have sold recasts there but I have never heard about recasts being brought to their attention without the organizers of that show doing something about it.  I've even seen them take action against recasters.  But, maybe Larry's experience has been different than mine.  I would hope all the forums and conventions and hobby magazines would make clear to folks that recasts are not welcome. 

As I understand it, the problem that UMA has had with this issue is that  folks upset by recasters want the moderators here to ban folks.  As I said earlier in this thread, the mods aren't in a position to investigate and act as judges over all the allegations that might come up here.  So, just as folks have been respectful and reasonable in this thread, i would hope that folks with complaints about recasters would be respectful and reasonable.  If folks make this ugly, why would UMA or anyone else want to get involved?  Many of us see this forum as a venue for selling the stuff we produce, for buying the stuff we want, for passing along and receiving information we want.  Why screw that up?

I just think folks need to step back and relax a bit.  No need for personal attacks and insults.  That goes nowhere.

[Toy Ranch]

I believe that a lot of the problem in the way of coming to a point of healing and acceptance is that there are chiefly 2 (or more) private groups of garage kit hobbyists.  One group is vehemently anti-recasting, and the other is accepting of it or engaged in recasting. Both groups have a group rhetoric about the topic.  If you want to belong to one of the groups, you have to accept the group's philosophy regarding recasts and licensing.  Even if you privately hold some nuanced views, you dare not utter them, or risk being re-educated or shunned and cast from the group.  Reciting the group's philosophy in new and different terms wins praise and respect from the group and it's members, while anything outside the group's view is subject to criticism or worse.



If you aren't in one of the groups, and you just like monsters and cool models, you don't have access to some of the kits that are only available to members of the group.  These may be unlicensed garage kits, or they may be recasts or recast parts. I say "unlicensed", because the licensed kits are obviously going to be available to the general public.  If you want to become a member of one of the groups, attacking the other group and championing the group's philosophy may not guarantee admittance and acceptance, but certainly it smooths the road to it.   So if I wanted to gain access to the pro-recast group, I could visit various hobby boards and make snide comments about the work of members of the other group, and throw in some opinions about how recasting is OK, and maybe learn to do a mold and recast a couple of things.   Likewise, if I wanted to join the anti-recast group, I would figure out who the "bad guys" are, and take some pot shots at them, and talk about how all recasts are bad and destroy the hobby.

This leaves no room for healing, or understanding. You are either with or against both of them.  The UMA has been subject to disruption from both sides, because we don't take a side.   We have taken the side that recasts are not allowed to be sold on the UMA.  For not taking a stronger stand, we have been regularly attacked, as "giving safe haven to recasters" or being "pro-recaster".  Since we have not adopted the philosophy of either group, we are the bane of both. 

My PERSONAL opinion...  I can see both sides.  I can understand why someone might want a kit they can't afford, and buy a recast.  I can understand why some hobbyists feel this destroys the hobby.  I can see the licensing issue, and why the pro-recast group feels as they do...  and I can see why the anti-recast group doesn't accept that.  Because of that, I'm universally hated and disliked by both sides.  So good luck achieving some sort of understanding and/or healing.  Even if some members of either side wanted it, they would probably be afraid to say so.  There will always be people recasting kits, whether it's Joe Blow and Ron Recaster or China and Taiwan. 

So I'll finish with a story that I've told before.  Years ago, I was buying some gift items at a wholesale place close to my office, and I was selling them on eBay.  One day, they had a bunch of Alien figures (from the film).  They were 14" long or so, and made of solid resin.  There were 15 or 20 of them, and I bought them all.  I put them on eBay and started selling them.  I think I paid $10 each, and they sold for $40, and were selling pretty well.  One day, I got a message from someone who said it was a recast model kit.  OK, whatever...  I paid $10 each, and they are selling for $40 each.  I'm not going to throw them away.  My customers don't care about model kits, they are happy to have a cool Alien figure.  Then I got some more messages, these were more hostile.  I just ignored them.  So was I wrong to do what I did?  Some would say yes.  Some would say no.  I didn't intend to be involved in "recasting" but if I walked up on the same figures again today, and I weren't in the midst of this mess, I would buy them again.  Since I'm an admin at the UMA, I wouldn't.  If I were not an admin at the UMA, yeah, I'd do it again.  They were already here.  Someone is going to sell them.  Might as well be me.  The people who buy them are not model hobbyists, they are Alien fans.  If it were more expensive, or if they had to put it together, they wouldn't buy it. 

That's what I mean about a nuanced view.  It's OK from my point of view.  It's not OK from someone else's.  Both of us are right, from our respective points of view.  I've thought about it, my mind is not going to change.  I don't expect anyone else's mind to change either.  So where does that leave us?  Can I buy the Aliens and sell them and not piss anyone off?  lol, nope.  At the same time, I don't think it's OK to go out and recast someone's model kit and sell it as a model kit.  I would never buy a model kit, build it, and make casts of it and sell it as a figure. 

[hammerfan]

A good point Bobby. it is easy to villify people when you dotn know the whole story or a told the story by someone with an axe to grind.

[hammerfan]

even though ive put out over 100 original kits, i still get pegged as a "evil recaster" ive done recasts, but ive admitted that. I wish some others who have done the same things would have the moxey to admit it.  but they wont. because they have an agenda. I think even George would agree that there is an amazing amount of hypocracy in this hobby.

[fmofmpls]

Its been apparent to me that both sides of the battle seem to stoke each others flame. One side will slander a certain individual on the other side thereby prompting the offended individual to react in slandering them, or worse yet, by recasting one of their kits. And back and forth it goes. It truly has turned into a hobby all unto itself. Forget about the models, it now seems much more common to invest endless time and energy in slandering one another. Some hobby forums tend to spend more time bad-mouthing individuals then they do spend on discussing the model kits themselves. It's a lynch mob mentality and its really quite pathetic. And this is yet another example of why the UMA will not engage itself in such matters.

So how do we fix this? I think both sides need to ask themselves this question. And I'm wondering how many even want to fix this?

[Scatter]

Gentlemen, we're dealing with matters of personal ethics. If an individual's ethics will not allow them to re-cast or steal IP without robbing him of slumber, then that is his stance and he should refrain. If another's ethics allows him to do so and sleep like a baby, that is his stance. You're NOT going to force your ethical disposition onto another free and sentient being. Period.

If your personal ethics won't allow you to attend conferences where re-casters are present, then don't go. If your personal ethics won't allow you to buy a superior unlicensed garage kit in lieu of a slipshod and patently disrespectful licensed product, more power to ya. But to believe that you can argue, or boycott, or insult, or harangue others to bend to your own personal ethical compass is simply spitting into the wind.

To thine own self be true........no others need apply.

[monsterphile]

On the Wonderfest question:

I've never been there, but I have been to other large cons like Chiller and Monster Mania here in NJ.  I can't speak for the organizers of Wonderfest, but what everyone has said so far in this thread, they have taken steps to remove recasts from the convention.  In running a large convention, I imagine that they have a million and one other things to do that would take precedence over policing vendors' wares.  If a vendor has a whole table that are obviously recasts, it's easier to detect than a vendor that has all sorts of stuff for sale with some recasts mixed in. 

Once again, like the issue that the UMA faces, policing for and evaluating recasting claims must be a bugger for someone running a convention.  For them to find spare time to do that can't be any fun.  The problem with the conventions of this sort is that the people running it are also fans and want to participate as much as they can in the festivities.  You just try to do your best. 

Rob

[FACTO2]

Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

I'd like to toss in a point that hasn't been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesn't sell then it's going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isn't a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  I've produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I haven't even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, I've produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didn't sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If you're lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  It's a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And I'd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  I've seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector who's has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but that's kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because they've been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.

[Scatter]

   The problem with the conventions of this sort is that the people running it are also fans and want to participate as much as they can in the festivities.  You just try to do your best. 

Rob

Precisely. If that's not good enough, then start your own convention. It's so much easier to criticize than participate though.