Box o' Vinyl Recasts

[RedKing]

OK, I recently acquired a box of 7 vinyl recast kits all from companies long out of business like Horizon,Screamin,geometric and Billiken. To me these types of recasts are no different than recasts of old Aurora kits. However, i have NO wish to start the whole recast debate/issues we just went through. I do not agree with those who recast resin kits made by artists out of their garages, but these are vinyl kits made by larger professional companies that are no longer in production or in business, as I said, just like all the resin Aurora recasts I have seen over the years. I got a Screamin Michael Myers, Dark Horse large Kong, Horizon Franky and Creech, Billiken Mummy and Geometric Harryhausen Cyclops and Ymir. My question is, since I do not want to reignite the recast fire, do you guys want to see pics of them as I do them or should I just leave them off the board? i love sharing my kits with you guys, but I totally understand if this is still too much of a touchy subject.

[Dr Acula]

well Id love to see them! If most modellers were honest I guarentee they all have a recast in their collection!

[fmofmpls]

Thanks Redking for respecting what has already proven to be a very incendiary topic. I would say no to sharing these pics as its bound to open a very tender scab. As an additional preventative measure, I'm also going to lock this thread. We just can't afford the risk of the Model Kits forum imploding all over again. No hard feelings and thanks again for your understanding.

[fmofmpls]

Once a thread is locked it usually stays locked. A few days ago I received a call from a good friend of mine - George Stephenson. George is the former, and original owner, of GeoMetric Designs - a model kit company originating here in Minneapolis. George and I go way back. I have a lot of respect for George. George had expressed his disappointment in my locking this thread. He felt it was a missed opportunity for a "recast" discussion that could have possibly been constructive. Imagine that ... a discussion about recasts that could actually have a good outcome! Wow, I wondered what George had been smoking. The history here at UMA in regards to the flammable topic of recasting has been anything but constructive. In fact, its been nothing but destructive. Destructive to the point where the entire forum almost explodes in anger. Henceforth, our decision to typically squash such discussions like a disease ridden housefly. We refuse to allow such fires to burn down our community. We've worked too hard to build it up. And besides, its not our job, and never will be, to police and enforce the model kit community. We administrate our forum to our own Terms Of Service. Those our the rules of which we moderate from and those are the rules we enforce. With that having been said, I fully realize there are plenty of individuals who don't care for our rules. They feel we condone recasting simply because we adhere to our set of rules and not theirs. They are frustrated when we don't ban somebody they ask us too. They seem to want to run our forum according to their rules and needs. And in turn, they've become more disruptive than the folks they are trying to exterminate. And so the story goes ... again and again and again.

BUT .. I have been asked for an opportunity to have a calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion on this subject. Imagine that. Are such things possible? Well, I guess we'll find out. I've decided to grant George his request. The discussion is open for just that - calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion. And I ask that you please adhere to that tone. Let's see if we can actually break new ground here without breaking our forum and somebody's skull in the process?

And now, ladies and gentlemen .. Mr. George Stephenson.

[Anton Phibes]

If most modellers were honest I guarentee they all have a recast in their collection!

I tell you honestly---I have none. So, is the guarantee a cash prize of some sort?

[george]

Wow! Where do I start?
 
First, I don't believe any good comes from sarcasm and name-calling and folks jumping down the throat of the author of the original post that started the thread. It is clear that he didn't have all the facts about recasting and the companies impacted by that practice.  And, getting all pissed off at the author of the second post won't do anything to clarify what is concerning about his comments; he, too, clearly doesn't understand that highlighting photos of recast models would be offensive to the original producers of those kits.  And, then getting all pissed off at the UMA moderator won't help folks better understand the anger and other emotions aroused by recasting; it won't help anyone better understand the harm done by recasting; and, it won't make anyone want to hear what victims of recasting have to say about recasts, recasters, and recasting.

So, let's see if there can be some civil discourse on all the issues raised by these three postings.

As you can imagine, I was initially appalled and disgusted when I read the first post.  The author wanted to share photos of model kits he had painted but the models included recasts of GEOmetric's vinyl kits.  I founded GEOmetric and the rights to GEOmetric's vinyl kits are STILL owned by me.  I did not sell the metal molds for GEO's vinyl kits and I still have a good-sized inventory of many of those original vinyl kits.  Still, I have to say that I appreciated the consideration shown by the author of the post that started the thread.  In asking if folks would be offended by showing photos of his recasted vinyl kits, he acknowledged how sensitive and emotional an issue it is for many of us. 

I was bummed when I read the second post from the UMA member who said he wanted to see the photos of the recasts.  In fact, he, too, is a very nice guy who had recently purchased and sent me photos of a finished Black Heart kit.  But it was clear to me that he, too, probably never understood how recasts impact small businesses like mine (GEOmetric and now Black Heart).

And I was disappointed by the UMA moderator's response to the request to post photos.  I felt that an opportunity to educate folks about an important and difficult issue was missed.

So, I contacted the author of the original post and explained the mistake in his assumption that Horizon, Screamin' GEOmetric and Billiken were" larger professional companies" that he compared to Aurora.  It is obvious that a lot of folks think of the old GEOmetric as some kind of GK conglomerate with a work crew, sales staff, marketing department, customer service division and a receptionist.  In our best years, GEOmetric actually had all that in my partner and me... just the two of us with an occasional friend helping out when we were too busy! We were not some large professional company but a couple of guys working our tails off in rented warehouse space where we tried to eek out a living by producing licensed resin and vinyl kits.  Our friends at Screamin' and Horizon were no different.  We weren't AMT/ERTL or Revell-Monogram.  We scratched and fought for every penny we could make and the only thing that separated us from the typical GK producer was that we did it full time, produced vinyl kits, purchased licenses and pedaled our stuff at hobby industry trade shows. 

I explained to the author that vinyl recasts did serious damage to our business; that supporting folks who do recasting is supporting the same folks who helped drive my partner out of the GK business and played a significant role in my decision to sell GEOmetric (my baby!) and return to the full-time practice of law.  That took me about 5 minutes to write and send. 

Immediately afterward, I got this response from the author:
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me george. I had no idea that your Geometric designs was such a small company... I assumed it was a large company. But that is precisely why I asked before I posted anything. For the record i didn't buy the recasts myself, they were given to me as a gift by a friend that has no idea what a recast even is. I wouldn't knowingly buy a recast, I prefer to sink what little money i have for the hobby into the new styrene kits. However, I didn't thinl these particular ones were AS BAD as some of the resin recasts because I thought, mistakenly, I know now, that these were from larger companies. I have alredy assured General Terry i won't bring them up again, and I won't, and i really thank you for setting me straight on the facts behind your company and the others as well- A recast is a recast.

"A recast is a recast," he said.  I instantly felt better.  I should add that, in my opinion, it doesn't matter whether the kit being recast was produced by Revel-Monogram or AMT/ERTL or Aurora.  Size doesn't matter.  A recast is a recast.   

I then contacted UMA moderator, Terry Ingram, to discuss UMA's decision to lock the thread.  I was disappointed that he didn't respond more broadly to the request about posting photos of recasts.  I would like to have seen a response that explained more fully why UMA would not want to post photos of recast kits, that many good artists and GK companies have walked away or been pushed out by recasting.  I would like to have seen Terry express as much concern about the damage done by recasting as the concern he expressed about the hassle of dealing with more angry commentary and flameouts about recasting.   I was also disappointed and bothered by the locking of the thread because it cut off access to the best venue for responding to the three posts that were impacted me personally. 
I have stayed out of all the recast discourse controversy on UMA just as I have stayed out of most flameout controversies on various forums over the years.  It's a waste of time trying to discuss an important issue about which folks are so emotional that the thing devolves into name-calling, sarcasm and insults.  I'd rather be painting a model.  I understand UMA's position on the whole recast discourse controversy.  However, a more deliberate response to this post might have been a step toward making GK artists and producers feel that UMA is not a haven for recasters.  Still, the discourse on this subject has been so hostile that I understand why Terry just wanted to cap the thing but I wish he had responded differently.

Terry and I don't agree on every issue but having talked to him about UMA's position with respect to recasting, I understand why UMA doesn't want to get in the middle of accusations by one person about alleged recasting by another.  Who wants to have to play judge and jury about that in every case, especially when you don't know all the players and you have no way to determine who is right and who is not?  As a District Court Judge, I do that for a living but I have the benefit of seeing the faces of the accusers, the witnesses and the accused.  In court, I have the benefit of hearing and seeing (as opposed to reading) folks' allegations and answers and reactions, and then making an informed decision about what is presented to me. I have folks sit in the witness stand, swear to tell the truth and then identify themselves before telling what they have to tell.  They get questioned by an attorney, cross-examined by another attorney and sometimes, questioned by me.  They can't hide behind some anonymous screen name.  And even then, with all that, it is not always easy to tell what's what and who did what to whom.  With respect to UMA and the recast controversy, reasonable people might reasonably disagree about whether it is reasonable for us to insist that forum moderators act like a district court judge every time there is a complaint about recasting.  Keep in mind, the mods on these forums, aren't getting paid to do this.  They are doing it for the love of the hobby and/or the love of monsters.

I expressed my concerns to Terry and asked for an opportunity to respond to the three posts that make up the thread.  He agreed.

Many of us have been involved in the hobby as collectors, producers, artists for many years and have a lot more experience with the recasting issue.  I've been involved in the hobby for almost 30 years.  But there are lots of new folks who have no idea what the big deal is about recasts, about how badly it suppresses the hobby.  We all know sculptors and producers who fled GK in disgust because their kits were being recast by folks right here in the U.S.  A number of resin kit producers, producers of high quality resin kits who were driven out of business by lower priced recasts of their kits.  Losing a handful of sales to recasters can be a significant loss to a small producer.  And, if you think the demise of GK leaders like Horizon and Screamin' had nothing to do with vinyl recasts of their kits, you are mistaken.  For this message to get across to folks, the conversation about the damage done by recasting has to remain civil.  When folks make it personal and toss insults and piss people off, nothing gets better.

For a couple of years now, rumors have flown about certain individuals having engaged in recasting.  In a number of forums, folks have called them names, made allegations, and made sarcastic remarks about them and engaged in personal attacks against them and their associates.  The rumor is those individuals got ticked at all the name-calling and contacted the studios and pointed them to a bunch of GK producers.  Whether all of those rumors and allegations are true is not relevant for the purpose of this post.  The question is: what good did all of that name-calling and negativity do anyone?  If all of the rumors are true, all of that name-calling and those personal attacks resulted in a number of folks getting cease & desist letters; resulted in nearly two dozen prominent GK producers contacting me about Universal and other copyright holders demanding as much as $25,000 for copyright infringement; resulted in prominent GK producers shutting down their websites, creating  passwords, requiring references for potential customers, and requesting that folks speak in some kind of silly code on hobby forums if they want to comment on a new kit.  Nice shooting.  How's your foot?

And if all those rumors about those individuals are true, they are laughing their asses off now, aren't they?  I would be.

We, as a model kit "community", need to get our act together.  We need to educate and to be educated about how these things impact the hobby.  We have to be better about communicating our opinions than we have been. Unfortunately, the angry and emotional discourse at UMA over the years has led to moderators wanting to immediately squelch any discussion of the issue.  There is so much anger over the issue that intelligent discussion of the issue cannot be had. Who's to blame for all of this? Irrelevant!  Let's figure out a way to get that fixed.  Otherwise, we'll continue to have folks like the authors of the above posts (and I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of others) who are unaware of the impact of recasting.  As the author indicated, these recasts were a gift from "a friend who has no idea what a recast even is".  Do you think the author and his friend are the only two folks unaware of what recasting did/does to kit producers like GEOmetric, Needful Things, Black Heart, Screamin', CellarCast, Alternative Images, Mike Hill, Horizon, Dimensional Designs, Nocturna, XO Facto, Billiken, Kim Ito, and dozens of other producers and artists?

We all need to chill for a minute about this issue.  We all need to think before posting insults and calling for boycotts and all that stuff.  If we care about the condition of our hobby, then we need to start doing things that will educate folks who don't know as much as those of us who have been around for a long time, those of us who have experienced some of this stuff.  I got one person, the author of this post, to better understand the impact of recasts.  Took me five minutes.   Between forum moderators, sculptors, producers and fans of garage kits, I refuse to believe that we can't all be smarter than we have been in dealing with recasts, recasting, and recasters. 

I don't expect everyone to agree with my views on this.  There is plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree about how to deal with these issues.  But, for those who think I see the world through rose-colored glasses, let me say this: I have been impacted as much as anybody out there by recasts.  There is no problem in this hobby that we cannot improve upon with some intelligent conversation.  We are all negatively impacted by recasting, ALL OF US.

GeoS

[Anton Phibes]

Very eloquently spoken. A good reply! I have some Geometric stuff that I bought at Wonderfest years ago. My favorite being the Fiends without a Face kit even all these years later. You must be a heckuva a lawyer.

[RedKing]

Thank you for that George, and thank you General Terry for unlocking this thread. After George wrote me, I thought it would have been a good idea if he could have responded to my thread the same way he wrote to me. I honestly had no clue GEOMetric,Screamin;,et al were small businesses.That's why I didn't thibk these were bad-all those companies are no longer in business, so who does it hurt? I've seen tons of Aurora recastsover the years, so how is this any different? I humbly stand correctd.These kits are alos honestly the first, and I will assure you the last, recasts I have gotten. I talked to my friend that gave them to me and explained the recasting situation and he felt really horrible, but now he, like me, knows better. He isn't a modeller so he had no clue these were unauthorized recasts, he just thought they were an amazing deal for kits he knew I would like as a late Christmas gift (we don't get to see each other very often). I am also very grateful for George having a level headed and calm approach and not attacking me as some kind of scumbag that enjoys ripping offGK makers, because I am defintiely not that! I have been an avid monster kit builder since I was 12 years old-almost 30 years and while my budget usually only allows me styrene purchases, i do have a lot of vinyl kits I bought years ago (before I was married) from Horizon,Billiken,Kaiyodo and Volks. I remember the boom in vinyl kits here in the 90s and was so disappointed when it ended. i always figured the market dried up or something, but these recasts have a lot to do with it and that is really sad. I would have loved Horizon,Screamin' and GEOMetric to have continued to producee new fairly inexpensive yet high quality vinyl kits. I was initially reticent to even post anything about these recasts i got and I thought it over for 2 or 3 days before I did post the way i did-as I knew it would be a sensitive issue. I am really gld I did now becuse otherwise I would not have learned just how much recasting hurt the hobby and the true nature of companies like GEOMetric,Horizon and the others.

[Dr Acula]

From the viewpoint of a collector and kitbuilder-
I would like to say I totally agree and understand everything George has said on the subject of recasting. I have been building and painting kits for over twenty years now.  im going to be completely truthful and admitt during my early years of collecting and learning about the hobby I would have purchased recasts, most of these I was totally unaware at the time were recasts as I bought them of reputable dealers that advertised in the now gone Model Mart.  I learned the hard way that recasts are not worth the money as they are of much inferior quality and simply were mostly a total waste of money, I also learned the hard way how to spot a recast.  As I got older and wiser? I appreciated the effort  and costs put in by companies like Billiken/Horizon to produce these kits and I do have a feeling of guilt that in some small way, I like many others had helped seal their demise and often think of what could have been in line of great kits these companies could have went onto produce.  What I was simply pointing out in my previous comment was 1 I wanted to see the finished paint jobs on these kits and 2 any modeller can write what they want, however most will have at least one recast in their collection, with or without their knowledge. 
my advice to anyone on the subject is simple - steer clear from recasts! They arent worth the money and hurt us as collecters! With experience I have found it is much better as a modeller to wait and keep searching for those original pieces you were looking as they always turn up for sale sometime and will give you greater pleasure building and painting them, for the original piece will always look much superior!
Spencer

[Hepcat]

Wow! Where do I start?

I see you've decided.

Hopefully though your interests aren't confined to just this one subject. There are thousands of other threads on this forum. So get yourself an avatar and start contributing!

[Dr Acula]

P.s I never bummed! anyone! not even George! Im a married man!

[Hepcat]

...I also learned the hard way how to spot a recast.

I take it that the recasts are typically packaged in boxes that are copies of the originals. How then do you tell a recast, especially if they're being sold by "reputable" dealers?

Furthermore, how do you know that any garage kit of a licenced character has been properly authorized? Which garage kit manufacturers properly licence all their kits? Which do not?

[george]

Recasts come all kinds of ways.  Rarely are they are packaged to look like the original.  I've seen bootlegs of GEOmetric's kits in bags, in boxes with a photo done by the recaster, in boxes using a photo copied from the original box.  The easiest way to ID a vinyl bootleg is to know where the seller comes from.  If an American vinyl kit comes from Thailand, Hong Kong, China or Korea, you can be pretty sure it is a recast.  Resin bootlegs are harder to detect but again, knowing who is selling it, asking the seller if it is a recast, and looking at the price, will give you some clues.  If a guy is selling GEOmetric's $120 vinyl Pumpkinhead for $25, you should expect it to be a recast.  If the vinyl is white, it is a recast. Other vinyl kit producers can speak up about their experiences.  I can only talk about what I've seen.

I am not sure from your questions if you equate unlicensed kits with recasts.  I have heard this suggested by others on occasion and I am glad to have this forum to share my views on that.  Having negotiated licenses for all of GEOmetric's resin and vinyl kits (when I owned the company), I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience in the area of copyright law and licensing.  I think my experiences might change some minds about equating recasts and unlicensed kits.  Maybe not.

At GEO, we licensed a bunch of stuff through most of the major motion picture studios. We paid good money for those licenses and in return got assurances that we would be protected from recasters.  But when our Star Trek vinyl kits and Aliens and Predator vinyl kits started getting bootlegged, I contacted the heads of the licensing/legal departments at Paramount Pictures and 20th Century Fox to let them know and to have them do their thing. We expected that for a $25,000 license for Trek and $10,000 license for Aliens and Predator, those studios would protect their copyright and protect us, their licensee. I gathered sample recasts, packaging, catalogues, website addresses, brochures and contact info for the recastersers and then got the cooperation from our overseas distributors and stores who were being outsold by the recasters.

The Trek recasts pissed us off. Paramount said they would do something but they did absolutely nothing. They didn't even send a C & D to a company in Pennsylvania that was bootlegging one of our vinyl kits and re-producing it in resin...yeah, IN PENNSYLVANIA!!!  Our contract with Paramount prohibited us from taking any legal action. Only Paramount could get legal.

But the Aliens and Predator bootlegs killed us. It wiped about 20 to 30% of our business in the blink of an eye; they wiped out our international sales because the bootlegs were selling for $7.50. Our wholesale price was about $25. Folks in Europe decided ALL of our vinyl kits were overpriced.

I contacted the head legal guy at 20th Century Fox with all the info I had collected.  He said they couldn't help us because going after a Korean recaster was "not cost effective." He said they couldn't win against a Korean recaster. I pointed out the fact that the distributor that was selling the stuff all over Europe was not Korean but was an American Company...IN BALTIMORE, MARYLAND...Diamond Comic Distributors! I had Diamond's catalogue offering the recasts and using GEOmetric's box art to advertise them. Unbelievable when you consider that Diamond was also distributing GEOmetric's Alien and Predator kits. Even more unbelievable when you consider that Diamond had, just a couple of months before, solicited orders for GEO's Alien and Predator using the same photos.  Diamond could not deny what was in their catalogue.

I pointed that out to the legal guy at Fox. "George," he said, "we aren't going to go after every little shop that carries a couple of bootlegs of GEOmetric kits. It's just not cost effective."

I couldn't believe it. I asked, "Then why did we pay you $10,000 for the license?" He didn't have an answer ready for that. "And while you're thinking about that question, let me ask another. Why the f#%k should I worry about you coming after me when GEO refuses to pay you anymore royalties? It's not cost effective!" He didn't have an answer to that either. End of conversation. Clearly, they weren't concerned about a few hundred more vinyl Predator and Alien and Ripley kits being sold without royalties being paid to them.  And if they weren't worried about that, they sure weren't concerned about a guy selling 50 (if he's lucky) resin kits of an Alien.

I owned GEO for 5 more years after that. I never spoke to Fox or Paramount after that but GEO sold a bunch of Ripleys, Aliens and Predators and Trek kits during that 5 years. And we never gave a thought to paying even one penny in royalties. And they never asked. 

To protect your copyright, you have to enforce it by protesting against those infringing upon it.  If you don't, you can lose it.  The studios make calculated decisions about when it is in their best interests to enforce their copyrights.  When they tell a licensee, like GEOmetric, that enforcing their copyright is not cost effective, they are telling us, "this does not impact us enough to warrant our attention".  They enforce copyrights when they become concerned about unlicensed product interfering with their ability to make money from their copyrighted properties.  A recaster's infringement upon a $10,000 license and a $25,000 license was not enough to interfere with their ability to make money.  I made clear to the studio attorney that we were not going to pay royalties anymore.  Their lack of response was a calculated decision on their part.  And ultimately what they told me was, "Don't let us see your stuff in Toys 'R' Us or WalMart." 

Let's not be naïve; the studios are well aware of garage kits, most of which are unlicensed.  So, are they being hurt by some sculptor and/or resin kit producer who produces 50 (if he's lucky) unlicensed kits of the Predator?  But when some opportunist comes along and recasts that Predator, is the original kit producer being hurt?  Is the hobby being hurt when the sculptors and kit producers get so frustrated that they walk away from it?

I was an outspoken advocate for licensing but not now.  I applaud anyone getting a license and making that work.  I think licensing helps the hobby because licensed product is more likely to be broadly advertised  and more likely to bring in new modelers.  But if you equate unlicensed kits with recast kits, we'll have to agree to disagree.

GeoS

[Gillfan]

George- I was with you 100%...until you said unlicensed kits and recasts are not the same.
Both profit some someone else's creation and work.
I can understand your frustration, I truly can, but I also remember the video-game company that sued Paramount over Trek and can't help but wonder if a similar action would have forced them to turn up the heat on the recasters.
http://www.thelogbook.com/zine/?p=686

[Anton Phibes]

Let's have a hypothetical. John Byrne drew X-men comics for awhile. He goes to a show and has 25 original art hand Drawings of Wolverine he is selling to raise money for personal reasons (artists dont have healthcare plans). He sells through the 25. Customer X buys  one, and instead of matting and framing it like customers A-W, he takes it home and traces another 20, and then tries to pass them off as original Byrnes, and pay for his purchase.

Byrne didnt break any licensing laws--he's a freelance artist and can draw whatever a fan requests. They do it at shows all the time, and they make good money at it. Marvel and DC couldnt care less. It isnt as if Byrne were selling fully finished statues, comics, prints or t-shirts and by-passing Marvel's cut. That they wouldn't tolerate. Its more of a limited deal among an extremely small group.

But the customer who bought a Byrne Wolverine sketch, took it home and made tracings, and is passing them off as original Byrne sketches is being outright dishonest. The item isnt an original Byrne.....no matter how much Customer X might wish people to think it is.

Years later, when one of the owners of an original goes to sell his treasured Byrne art sketch---a dealer tells him:"Thats pretty common. I bought one from Customer X and got it really cheap." Customer X, while being sneaky and trying to make a fast buck, has now hurt the original run of Byrne sketches done for whatever cause he did them for.This is the effect re-casters have on the hobby.

If a re-caster already has the skill to reverse engineer a mold and make a re-cast...why not pay someone to do an original sculpt of their own and cast them up for a limited run? Because that requires using money to hire a sculptor. I think this may have started as a way for a Customer X to offset the cost of collecting by keeping the original and selling the phonies to subsidize his/her collection. Then it simply mutated into the quick money making thing it has become.

Byrne didnt cheat Marvel with his drawings. Customers A-W didnt cheat by paying for the items and matting and framing them on their wall, but there is an air of dishonesty that comes with Customer X's actions. Whether it was his/her intention or not. Thats the way i look at it anyway. Everybody gets hurt.