Author Topic: Box o' Vinyl Recasts  (Read 23978 times)

hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2012, 03:57:01 PM »
yes some good folk have been banned from a hobby site recently and all over the MOds gigantic and misguided ego.  its a shame. it should be about the fun of the hobby not somebodys trolling agenda  LOL
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MonsterBoy7

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2012, 10:20:11 PM »
   I would like to ask a question, to HammerFan or HepKat . Have you ever recasted a kit and have you ever produced an unlicenced model kit?
   

   We heard one side of what recasting has done to Mr George, now I would like to hear why recasting shouldn't be of importance?Or the other point of view on why it is not that big of a deal as both of you seem not to care as much as some people do?


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RedKing

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2012, 11:45:07 PM »
Hopefully the end result doesn't involve angry demands that posters be banned for activities outside of their posting on UMA, or other aggrieved posters quitting because their demands have not been met. That has evidently been the history of the issue being aired.

 :(
That is exactly why i started this thread Hep. A good friend of mine who isn't a modeller got me these kits as a belated Christmas gift. I've never bought recasts before but I love sharing my kits here with everyone, and considering the problems we had before, I didn't want to start that fire again. i was hoping by asking everyone's opinions first, i could get some level headed responses. How it turned out so far has been even better in that George has explained calmly and reasonably how recasting impacted him and his company directly. I can also add that the quality of severaal of these recast kits are very poor. the large Michael Myers,and King Kong kits, as well as the standard size Frankenstein all have torsos that are flattened and will require a lot of work to reshape them and get them to fit together properly. to an inexperienced kit builder this would probably make it impossible for them to even build it... and honestly, I am not 100% certain I will be able to fix them myself, they may be unfixable, I haven't tried them yet. I can also see many areas on each kit that is lacking in detail, the worst being the Creature's hands-the palms are completly devoid of detail and one even has a hole in it that will need to be filled.
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Dr Acula

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2012, 02:03:07 AM »
Nice redirect your Honor. My point is, it is very difficult to take a moral stance on recasting when you are taking money out of the pocket of companies that own the rights to the IP 's that are being produced without license. I dont weep for Universal or Fox or any of the big boys, but that isnt the point.  You cant take the moral high ground about one issue and over look the other. and least not if you want to be taken seriously.  Garage kits used to be fun. I wish it was the same way now. People talked aobut kits, they traded kits and gave each other pointers. But then some new people came into the hobby who somehow got the idea that they shoudl be runnign the show and that thier morals should be imposed on everybody. These people created a fracture  in this hobby which has never ben healed.there are some none too bright acolytes of this group who feel that everything they say is gospel. I say take everything that is said with a large grain of salt. Why do peopel hide behind closed BBS and websites??  its gotten out of hand. And all because some people couldnt play nice.......

Sorry folks, but i think Hammerfan has a valide point here! Unlicensed kits, when you think about it seem as much as stealing as recasting!  This issue was raised first by George, so I would like to hear an explanation from George to how they are not!

Anton Phibes

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 05:49:20 AM »
Sorry folks, but i think Hammerfan has a valide point here! Unlicensed kits, when you think about it seem as much as stealing as recasting!  This issue was raised first by George, so I would like to hear an explanation from George to how they are not!


I'm not George---but re-casters dont confine their pilfering to unlicensed kits of iconic characters. If an original concept, public domain character, or even a licensed item is sculpted with talent by one of the big names....it's guaranteed the re-casters will pop out of the woodwork to make a quick buck off of somebody else's creation. It's like letting a 50 lb. house cat outside at the dawn of Spring. Every little flea or tick in town will seek to make a meal off the cat. But it's his blood.

My experience with re-casters has been this: they are in it for a quick buck, and will lie right to your face about it being a re-cast. Its all about offering counterfeit items for minimal effort for maximum profits. No other reason.

The canned commentaries like "It's for the fun of the hobby" are ridiculous. They are so thinly veiled that even Mr. Magoo could see through them. Anyone with a good grasp of the King's English, and an introductory class in psychology, can tell by reading the posts contained within this thread who here is a re-caster, a sympathizer,beneficiary, etc. The argument that "you made a kit, so now I have the right to re-cast it" is the same as saying "You let your cat outside during the spring, so its my right as a flea or tick to drain it dry." Not my cat.

Instead of crying foul (and making George address) the precautionary actions taken by producers~ just view the encrypted code, bannings, and password protected sites as a flea bath. Fleas and ticks can exist in the wild all they desire. But I dont have to let them in my house to infect or possibly kill what's mine. I wouldn't expect anyone else to either.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:54:55 AM by Anton Phibes »

hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 06:13:41 AM »
MY point is that whether you think recasting is bad or not, it is no worse than stealing someones intellectual property. the whole garage kit hobby was based on that. the excuse at the time was that the toy and kit companies didnt do certain characters or didnt do them well, therefore it was ok to do a predator, creature, et al. Now with all the statues, limited edition toys and prepaints there isnt a character that hasnt been done ad nauseum. recasting may have hurt the hobby. But what is killing the model building hobby is the abundance of prepaints, die casts, statues etc. Let face it. unless you are a good hobbyist and really love painting and building a kit. Most people are content to open a box and set a finsihed piece on the shelf. and they can buy it that way often a lot cheaper than building a kit.  its been said here that the companies who own the IP rights to these characters do really care about the garage kits. Well, Ive recieved two lawsuits from Marvel and Universal, because someone decided to turn me in to the companies. I know several garage kit companies who were also stung. so I submit that saying the companies dont care or dont do any thing about IP theft is pure fantasy.
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Dr. Madd

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 06:27:07 AM »
Considering that Disney has gone after small operations (like daycare centers) for using unlicensed images, I can't believe 20th Century Fox or Paramount would do nothing about people in this country making unauthorized kits using thier charaters.  thsi was stupid on their part.  As far as re-issues are concerned, I loved that Polar Lights reissued the Addams Family house, and it was fun to build.  I'm all in favor of official remakes of older kits, especially when it comes to building them.

After Daycare centers? Isn't that kinda swatting a fly with a bazooka?
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Anton Phibes

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 06:40:41 AM »
Just an FYI: Polar Lights, Moebius, etc. re-popping a kit is NOT the same as a re-caster re-casting a kit. Polar lights, etc. pay fees and have permission, and actually spend money re-tooling the thrilling kits of day gone by.

If we all knew someone on the board that was making counterfeit AHI Creatures and passing them off as originals...we would have a collective coronary and all of monsterdom would end on the spot because we'd all drop dead. Re-casting an extremely limited "custom" garage kit and passing it off as an original isn't any different. Nobody should have to worry if they are going to get burned by collecting.

Re-casters are tantamount to the master forger. He can age paper, use vintage fountain pens, and fake Lon Chaney's signature to the point of near perfection.They have the skills...but they use them to defraud. No matter how close the fake AHI Craeture or the Lon Chaney forgery looks---they are still fake, and its still fraudulent. It's a rip off. Re-casting resin kits is the only arena of monster collecting where some folks will turn a blind eye. I'll never understand this.

Gillfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 06:44:50 AM »
After Daycare centers? Isn't that kinda swatting a fly with a bazooka?
It is, but part of maintaining a copyright is showing that you are protecting it. If you allow people to use your work without a licence it can slip into public domain. Cellophane was once a brand name, but it was used so generically that the copyright was lost.
The companies that own Styrofoam and Band-Aids are especially cautions about this. 

All that said, I have long thought Disney takes the wrong approach. One of my favorite incidents happened when they went and sued a school to repaint over the images on their walls and WB came in and, for free, painted WB characters over the Disney characters. It was a genius PR move.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 06:49:06 AM by Gillfan »

hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 07:40:38 AM »
Its funny that people are selective about who they allow to "get way " with recasting and then chastise others. For example Wonderfest used to allow a certain fellow from Tennessee to blatantly sell recasts for years, and then when he recasted a certain magazine producers kit, he was banned from the show. Hwy was it ok to sell recasts before this? He used to set up at Chiller too, for years. then for the same reasons he was banned. And yet you can go to either show now and it you look around recasts are still being sold, with not a whimper from the promoters. that seems a bit....hypocritical  to me.
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monsterphile

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 07:50:28 AM »
Let's not let this thread deteriorate into taking pot shots at other posters.  It was a great idea for Terry to reopen this thread to allow an intelligent and calm discussion.  If it starts to go downhill, that would be disrepsectful to Terry.

The issue with recasting has certain key issues that make it a sticky situation. 

We'll start with licensed kits, like George did initially with his old business.  He did exactly as he was supposed to do.  He secured the license for the properties from the license holder, thereby producing official license kits.  When people started making unlicensed copies of his stuff, they corporation did not pursue any legal action to stop these recasters from making bootleg copies.  The big company/studio failed to do what they should have done.  Whether or not the contract specified that they legally HAD to enforce the prevention of these bootlegs, they SHOULD have.  I realize that the foreign sellers are more difficult to pursue, but they certainly could have made an attempt to stop a domestic importer from doing so, especially someone like Diamond.

When the big corporation failed George and even admitted that they had no intention of living up to their moral obligation (corporation = moral...yeah, right!), Geo said, "Well, if you don't care about enforcing the license and have directly told us so, we'll go on alone.  Was this legally right?  Of course not, but arguably justifiable.  We know that over the years, the larger studios have made money off of TV shows, films, and other creative properties and because contracts had never taken into account future syndication and licensing; actors, creators, and artists got screwed out of money. 

As far as unlicensed garage kit makers go--yes, we understand that they are typically not making a large number of these items, and any profit made from them is minimal.  Again, yes, they are legally violating  the copyright of whoever owns that property.  Certainly, there are a lot of properties, especially in horror and Sci-Fi that sit dormant for decades with the companies/license holders never doing anything with them.  The garage kit maker creates and manufactures a limited run (typically) of a character/film and does, in fact, violate copyright law.  Legally, it's wrong, especially if it's based on the likeness of an actor (as opposed to a rubber-suited monster or a spaceship), because the actor (or their estate) is left out of the loop also.  It's often hard to feel sorry for the studio not being shown any consideration, especially when they themselves shown little consideration to those that created these designs or characters for them.  WHen the show/movie/chacter is a current license, it's trickier.  If someone is doing a garage kit of Spider-Man, they are using a character that is currently in use and will be experiencing a resurgence when the new movie comes out.  However, unless there's a company out there selling a licensed model kit of Spider-Man, the garage kit will have little effect on the success of selling other Spider-Man merchandise.  The only one that loses is the corporation.  Whether one can live with that, is up to the individual. 

Let's look at the recaster.  They are violating everyone all the way down.  They're copying someone else's work, whether or not the original was licensed.  If it's an item that's currently still in production/available, they are directly competing with the originator.  They have shown no originality or creativity.  They are like the kids that copy test answers off of someone else's paper in school.  At this point, the recaster occupies the lowest level.  The problem is, they don't care, especially if it's a knock off from overseas. 

There is another tricky situation with garage kits that does work against the original makers.  That's the idea of the kit as a collectable.  More than any other monster collectable, the garage kit is arguably meant to be opened and used.  Seldom is the original packaging very displayable as part of a collection.  Garage kits definitely look better assembled and painted on a shelf.  The problem arises when someone wants to make and display one of them and due to cost, either original or marked up for OOP items, can not get one.  Heck, even styrene kits these days are getting up there in price.  It's certainly frustrating for the modeler that wants to make one if they can't find one, but they may just have to accept the fact that they may not be able to find one.  The recaster poses as someone who is helping such individuals, but they're just taking a shortcut and letting someone else do all the work for them.  If you want to a model of a an old character, here's an idea: come up with your own sculpt and design and manufacture your own garage kit.  Don't ride on someone else's success, do it yourself.  If you want to make a Nosferatu garage kit (as an example) don't made a direct copy of someone else's model, do your own pose of the chacter with your own base/backround.  If you have the facilities to make copies, you can use those same facilities to make your own originals. 

For the record:

I am not a recaster.
I am not a grage kit maker.
I can't sculpt to save my life, but I wish I had the ability to be able to do what they do. 

I have probably 30 or so styrene kits of varying ages that need to be started, completed, restored, or repainted.  I have 4 licensed vinyl kits that also need the above processing to be done (BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA as a werewolf,  the monster from THE RELIC (Kolgotha?), and the  Tsurbaya(sp?) Wolf Man, and Screamin's werewolf.  I have one little resin model of Darkness from LEGEND.  I got it off of Ebay many years ago, but did nothing with it because I had no idea how to do a resin model.  I think it came in a bag with a header card, but I'm not sure if I saved the packaging.  It's a tiny little guy and I'm hoping that's why it was packaged that way.  Next time it surfaces, I''l try to get someone to ID it as either an original (the I'll I'll keep it and try to assemble and paint it) or a recast (I'll toss it).  Are racasts done in resin also or just vinyl?

Rob

hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 08:39:26 AM »
that sound like one of my 120mm kits(legend). sure recasts are done in resin. that is far easier than redoing a vinyl modl which is very costly except in asia.
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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 08:53:51 AM »
this almost parallels the download of movies and music debate. a lot of people feel its ok to download a movie off the internet, which is theft of intellectual property. But then look down on people who download the movies et al and then resell the product, becauase that is bootlegging.  how is either one more heinous than the other?
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hammerfan

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2012, 08:56:28 AM »
So i guess the thread here is saying that stealing from the big boys(IP theft) is ok and recasting an unlicensed kit(stealing from a thief) is not ok?
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george

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Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2012, 09:06:04 AM »
Larry and Dr. Acula: If you are advocating banning unlicensed products from UMA, please bring  that discussion in another thread.  I've been pretty clear about my views on unlicensed kits.  But the fact is that recasters don't bootleg only or even primarily unlicensed kits.  The recast kits referred to in the opening post to this thread were all LICENSED.  The moderator here re-opened this thread to discuss recasts.  Bringing unlicensed products and pre-paints sidetracks the discussion of recasting that has been a huge problem for UMA mods.  We are hoping to bring some sanity to the discussion of recasting and most of the commentary here has been about that issue.  If you want to discuss unlicensed products, which would also include T-shirts and masks and other product, I'll gladly respond to that in another thread.  I'm not afraid to deal with that issue either but in another thread.  Thanks, guys.

GeoS
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 09:18:56 AM by george »
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