NBC Picks Up David E. Kelly's Wonder Woman Pilot

[zombiehorror]

However, there are rumblings in the internet geek Thor purist camp who just HATE it. 

And I'm sure that if the internet had been around in the sixties there would have been much rumbling among Batman purists over the Batman series!  I don't know about the series standing the test of time either; especially given the darker side of Batman that we've seen in the movies, Batman and Robin, being the exception which was just a highly overpriced version of the old show.

[Hepcat]

We weren't talking about your opinion of the show. We were discussing your contention that Superheroes played for camp don't stand the test of time. And Batman clearly does. Nothing on TV was ever campier. Whether you personally liked it or not is irrelevant. It stands the test of time.

If the TV show has stood the test of time, why have Batman fans never clamoured for a similar portrayal of Batman in the movies? They do not. They want a darker, grittier Batman played straight.

No, I liked Lynda Carter from the seventies.

Whether you personally liked the TV show or not is irrelevant. It has clearly stood the test of time since Wonder Woman fans continue to clamour for the same portrayal of the character.

Well, I'll concede that the bracelets are silly, but LESS silly than the Golden Lasso Of Truth. Can't wait for the defense of that one.

It's her magic lasso. Heroes with magical powers have a long history both on the screen and in comic books. Dr. Strange, Scarlet Witch, Dr. Fate and Zatanna all have their own enthusiastic fan base. In fact, the reason Serinda has been nominated by fans for the role of Wonder Woman is because they liked her portrayal of Zatanna in Smallville:

[Fester]

I think it is an artifact of our modern culture.
Batman as portrayed by Adam West came from a simpler time. 
We had good guys and we had bad guys.

Good Guys                  Bad Guys
Allies                          Axis
democracy                   commies
Batman                       Supercriminal of the week
Captain Kirk                 Klingon/Romulan/Gorn of the week
James West                 Dr Loveless
Colonel Hogan              Colonel Klink

And there was a gap between the two. Good guys were almost always good;  bad guys rarely had a redeeming quality.  But that was the world in the late 20th century.  But as the century closed, the lines between good and bad; between light and dark; between heroes and villains faded.  Eventually, heroes had flaws.  Good guys did bad things once in a while.  Bad guys occasionally showed mercy.

Batman the TV series was based on a comic book.
Batman the "Dark Knight" was based on a "Graphic Novel."

The evolution from comic book to graphic novel is more than just a shift from pulp to glossy paper.  I like to joke the only difference between the two is the cost. 

But there is more to it than that.   For decades, comic books were kid stuff and regulated by much the same standards as TV and the movies. 
On TV one never saw people of the opposite sex in the same bed, go to the bathroom or have an interracial relationship.
The first couple to share a bed on TV?  Herman & Lily Munster.
If Mayberry was in South Carolina, where were the African-Americans?
The first interracial couple?  The earliest I can think of was George and Louise Jefferson's neighbors.
For many years crime in movies could not pay.  The bad guys had to get caught, and the good guys had to prevail.  The most controversial and memorable movies and TV shows of the time attempted to challenge the status quo.

My point, and I am coming to it, is that as society has evolved--so has its entertainment. 

Is it good or bad?  I cannot say.  I enjoy Adam West's Batman.  It was good, light fun.
The "Dark Knight" Batmen not so much.  I appreciate the more complex characters.  But the over the top CG and special effects that defy reality (especially physics)--lets just say it makes more sense on a comic book page than it does on the screen.

And as regards Wonder Woman:  I'm a guy.  I won't even notice if her airplane is invisible or her Golden Lasso of Truth is silly.  Heck, I'm not sure I'll notice it there is a set or other actors.  I watched the original Wonder Woman and all I remember of it is Lynda Carter.

[Scatter]

If the TV show has stood the test of time, why have Batman fans never clamoured for a similar portrayal of Batman in the movies? They do not. They want a darker, grittier Batman played straight.

Again, you refer to the geek niche. Notice the word "NICHE". Popularity is definitionally independent of geek niches, which definitionally are populated by a small number of geeks. Popularity is not determined by small numbers of geeks. It's determined by the masses. Case in point, the niche Batman geeks hate the series...........yet the series is still outrageously popular 45 years later. So much for the import of geek niches in relation to "standing the test of time".

Whether you personally liked the TV show or not is irrelevant. It has clearly stood the test of time since Wonder Woman fans continue to clamour for the same portrayal of the character.

A little light on the logic and facts. Can you point me to the clamoring hordes of WW fans who are rising up in unison to demand a portrayal along the lines of the 70s show?? For that matter, can you point me to the clamoring hordes who want the NEW type of WW portrayal?? Because, were they there, you can be certain this latest project wouldn't currently reside in the recesses of the round file cabinet.

It's her magic lasso. Heroes with magical powers have a long history both on the screen and in comic books. Dr. Strange, Scarlet Witch, Dr. Fate and Zatanna all have their own enthusiastic fan base.

Ah............of course.  Everything has an "enthusiastic fan base" somewhere. The question is, whether that fan base has the mass to support a TV show and entice sponsors, or whether it's only wildly popular among the particular tiny geek niche in question.

In fact, the reason Serinda has been nominated by fans for the role of Wonder Woman is because they liked her portrayal of Zatanna in Smallville:

Yup, she's pretty. Again, how that makes the current WW show as currently constructed a viable option for primtime viewing escapes me. And the sponsors. And the Networks. And you too apparently. 

[Scatter]

And I'm sure that if the internet had been around in the sixties there would have been much rumbling among Batman purists over the Batman series!

Yup. That was my point. The purists always rumble. Yawn.

I don't know about the series standing the test of time either; especially given the darker side of Batman that we've seen in the movies, Batman and Robin, being the exception which was just a highly overpriced version of the old show.

It's still wildly popular. It still generates a ton of money. It's still being shown on TV. The stars are still in demand on the convention circuit. And yet it hasn't filmed a new episode in over 40 years. Yeah, I don't know why anyone would consider that standing the test of time.

Remember the premise Hep put forth...........Superhero shows played for camp never stand the test of time. Whether the darker or more campy portrayal is more popular now isn't the question being addressed. I prefer the darker portrayal myself, but still love the old series. And I'm quite certain I'm not alone. It doesn't have to, and in fact is not, an "either/or" question. The concurrent popularity of the campy along with the gritty makes that inarguable.

The Batman graphic novel geek may hate the series, but he's marginalized numerically. The vast majority have no difficulties loving both portrayals for what they are, and appreciating them both.

[Fester]

There are a couple of issues that might explain the failure of the latest iteration of Wonder Woman.

First off:  The costume:  There really isn't that much to it --er-- I mean, there are a limited number of options one can have with a red bustier and blue Y fronts.  Fredricks of Hollywood aside, the costume will have to remain pretty much the same.  Sure, a few fetishists might argue over which hip the lasso should hang, or the precise constellation of stars in her undies.

You want a dark knight version?  I really don't think Wonder Woman would look better in black rubber armor, George Clooney nipples, or not.

Lynda Carter has a certain charm.  The actress cast as Wonder Woman will need to be more than a pretty face.  I really don't know about any of the casting choices, but I cannot think of a modern actress that I could see as WW. 

That might be why I never really liked the Batman movies.  Michael Keaton?  Mr Mom in a cape?
The rest have been just as doofy, each in their own way.  I mean, I liked the movies as a good way to spend an afternoon. Lots of action and stuff blowing up is OK.  But they could have killed Batman in any of those movies and I would not have given the hindquarters of the nearest Rattus Norvitacus.  I could never really care about any one of them.

And--maybe this is a long shot.  Perhaps the scripts and/or story treatments sucked and no one was willing to admit it.

[Bizarro Jeff]

Now I see NBC decided not to pick it up for the Fall season...


Bizarro Jeff

[zombiehorror]

I'm sorry but I still don't see how Batman the series has stood the test of time?!  It's dated way more than most shows of that period, it is the epitome of 60's cheese and there was a lot of cheese in the 60's.  I am not a Batman purist, I've read some of the comics and seen all the films (more because they interested me than, "Oh gotta see that it's Batman.") and some of the cartoons.  The Batman series stands as the worst depiction of the character hands down you don't have to be a fanboy to see that.  Bad dialogue, cheap/ill fitting costumes.......and what the hell was with Romero's moustache under that make up?!

That being said I still watch it when it's on, which looks like right now you can only see it on HUB probably due to the fact that ABC owns both and were looking for a time filler, and the kids even watch Batman The Movie on Netflix.  But just because a 3 1/2 year old and a 5 year old watch it doesn't mean it's stood the test of time.....LOL!

[Scatter]

I'm sorry but I still don't see how Batman the series has stood the test of time?!  It's dated way more than most shows of that period, it is the epitome of 60's cheese and there was a lot of cheese in the 60's.  I am not a Batman purist, I've read some of the comics and seen all the films (more because they interested me than, "Oh gotta see that it's Batman.") and some of the cartoons.  The Batman series stands as the worst depiction of the character hands down you don't have to be a fanboy to see that.  Bad dialogue, cheap/ill fitting costumes.......and what the hell was with Romero's moustache under that make up?!

That being said I still watch it when it's on, which looks like right now you can only see it on HUB probably due to the fact that ABC owns both and were looking for a time filler, and the kids even watch Batman The Movie on Netflix.  But just because a 3 1/2 year old and a 5 year old watch it doesn't mean it's stood the test of time.....LOL!

Yes.............the 60s cheeziness is part of the appeal. It was part of the appeal even back then. It was made to be campy.  Even YOU still watch it. "This is the worst portrayal of Batman ever..........but I still watch it 45 years later. But it hasn't stood the test of time."

I'll let the dichotomies stew. 

[Fester]

Sometimes, if it wasn't for irony, we'd have nothing to talk about.

[zombiehorror]

Yes.............the 60s cheeziness is part of the appeal. It was part of the appeal even back then. It was made to be campy.  Even YOU still watch it. "This is the worst portrayal of Batman ever..........but I still watch it 45 years later. But it hasn't stood the test of time."

I'll let the dichotomies stew. 

Watching it for nostalgia's sake isn't the same as watching it because it's stood the test of time?!?

[judd]

It was hip in the 60's to mock the establishment and that aspect of Batman is a bit dated now.  It's still a fun show though.  The joke does wear thin after a bit.  The Catwoman, Joker, Penguin and Riddler episodes are well done the other villians, not so much.

Wonder Woman is a tough character to work with.  If you make her like Marston did she comes across as too perfect for the modern audience.   I think Marston had a formula which worked at the time and other writers with the exception of Perez weren't able to make the character appeal to the audience.

[Hepcat]

Again, you refer to the geek niche. Notice the word "NICHE". Popularity is definitionally independent of geek niches, which definitionally are populated by a small number of geeks. Popularity is not determined by small numbers of geeks. It's determined by the masses. Case in point, the niche Batman geeks hate the series...........yet the series is still outrageously popular 45 years later. So much for the import of geek niches in relation to "standing the test of time".

But the Batman show is only popular among a certain specific geek niche itself - that being sixties nostalgists (and little kids of course who would like any superhero TV show including a relaunched Wonder Woman). Everybody else thinks the sixties Batman TV show is dated and silly.

Can you point me to the clamoring hordes of WW fans who are rising up in unison to demand a portrayal along the lines of the 70s show?? For that matter, can you point me to the clamoring hordes who want the NEW type of WW portrayal??

Right here, and on numerous similar discussion forums where the new potential Wonder Woman TV show has been a hot topic of discussion. And the TV networks take the opinions expressed by fans on these boards very seriously. Why do you think they altered the first costume in which Adrianne was portrayed as Wonder Woman if not for negative fan commentary?

Yup, she's pretty. Again, how that makes the current WW show as currently constructed a viable option for primtime viewing escapes me.

But you yourself already admitted that you watched the original Wonder Woman series because you liked to watch Lynda Carter in the role. Therefore you are effectively conceding that if the right actress portrays Wonder Woman, then you'd watch the show! What makes you think you're the only one?

Yup. That was my point. The purists always rumble. Yawn.

And are you not yourself one of the "purists" who have been condemning the "Van Helsing" movie because its portrayal of Dracula and other monsters failed to live up to your existing notions of the characters? The movie had the plot, the setting and action galore, but you hated the movie because Drac wasn't right! Because he was too campy!

Remember the premise Hep put forth...........Superhero shows played for camp never stand the test of time.

Hold it right there. I said that the shows that have best served the test of time are those where the superheroes have been played straight and not campy.

And our fundamental disagreement concerns whether Wonder Woman could indeed be a viable TV show/movie in this day and age in her original costume if they found the right actress and script. I've been arguing that she could. You seem to be arguing the opposite despite the fact that you watched the TV show from the seventies.

With the right scripting, Adrianne's Wonder Woman could have had an excellent audience:

[Scatter]

OK, I think I have it now.........

Generating a ton of money and still being on the air over 40 years after its inception is not standing the test of time (because the geeks don't like it)..........Batman the series is generally hated despite its continuing popularity (as long as you define popularity by a few geeks living in their parents' basement) .........a few geeks on websites such as this = clamoring hordes instead of niche geeks (who can change a costume but somehow whose clamoring horde-dom couldn't get the series even green-lighted), my rejection of Van Helsing's Drac is based upon his "campiness", and my love of Lynda Carter in a camp version of WW means the right costume-filler would render me a fan of a ridiculous concept played straight (which is nothing like the portrayal in the 70s series).

Is that about it?? 

We'll have to agree to disagree . 

[Hepcat]

Hold it right there. I saw you palm that card.

...a few geeks on websites such as this = clamoring hordes instead of niche geeks....

You were the one who introduced the concept of geeks into this discussion in a transparent attempt to deride Wonder Woman and other superhero movie fans. And you were also the one who demanded the "hordes" of supporters, which is setting the bar higher than any level that could reasonably be expected for a new project. People don't march in mobs to demand TV shows. And now you're the one setting up a straw man argument misrepresenting my position by crudely juxtaposing the two concepts.

I'm simply arguing that Wonder Woman is no more ridiculous than any other superhero recently portrayed in film and thus has as good a chance as any to be successful. Moreover, I'm also saying that any Wonder Woman TV show should be played straight since every other superhero movie and TV show in the last thirty years has been played straight.