Universal Monster Army

Collecting Monsters => Monster Kits => Topic started by: RedKing on March 03, 2012, 12:21:57 AM

Title: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: RedKing on March 03, 2012, 12:21:57 AM
OK, I recently acquired a box of 7 vinyl recast kits all from companies long out of business like Horizon,Screamin,geometric and Billiken. To me these types of recasts are no different than recasts of old Aurora kits. However, i have NO wish to start the whole recast debate/issues we just went through. I do not agree with those who recast resin kits made by artists out of their garages, but these are vinyl kits made by larger professional companies that are no longer in production or in business, as I said, just like all the resin Aurora recasts I have seen over the years. I got a Screamin Michael Myers, Dark Horse large Kong, Horizon Franky and Creech, Billiken Mummy and Geometric Harryhausen Cyclops and Ymir. My question is, since I do not want to reignite the recast fire, do you guys want to see pics of them as I do them or should I just leave them off the board? i love sharing my kits with you guys, but I totally understand if this is still too much of a touchy subject.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 03, 2012, 03:23:51 AM
well Id love to see them! If most modellers were honest I guarentee they all have a recast in their collection!
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 03, 2012, 09:52:08 AM
Thanks Redking for respecting what has already proven to be a very incendiary topic. I would say no to sharing these pics as its bound to open a very tender scab. As an additional preventative measure, I'm also going to lock this thread. We just can't afford the risk of the Model Kits forum imploding all over again. No hard feelings and thanks again for your understanding.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 06, 2012, 09:53:59 PM
Once a thread is locked it usually stays locked. A few days ago I received a call from a good friend of mine - George Stephenson. George is the former, and original owner, of GeoMetric Designs - a model kit company originating here in Minneapolis. George and I go way back. I have a lot of respect for George. George had expressed his disappointment in my locking this thread. He felt it was a missed opportunity for a "recast" discussion that could have possibly been constructive. Imagine that ... a discussion about recasts that could actually have a good outcome! Wow, I wondered what George had been smoking. The history here at UMA in regards to the flammable topic of recasting has been anything but constructive. In fact, its been nothing but destructive. Destructive to the point where the entire forum almost explodes in anger. Henceforth, our decision to typically squash such discussions like a disease ridden housefly. We refuse to allow such fires to burn down our community. We've worked too hard to build it up. And besides, its not our job, and never will be, to police and enforce the model kit community. We administrate our forum to our own Terms Of Service. Those our the rules of which we moderate from and those are the rules we enforce. With that having been said, I fully realize there are plenty of individuals who don't care for our rules. They feel we condone recasting simply because we adhere to our set of rules and not theirs. They are frustrated when we don't ban somebody they ask us too. They seem to want to run our forum according to their rules and needs. And in turn, they've become more disruptive than the folks they are trying to exterminate. And so the story goes ... again and again and again.

BUT .. I have been asked for an opportunity to have a calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion on this subject. Imagine that. Are such things possible? Well, I guess we'll find out. I've decided to grant George his request. The discussion is open for just that - calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion. And I ask that you please adhere to that tone. Let's see if we can actually break new ground here without breaking our forum and somebody's skull in the process?

And now, ladies and gentlemen .. Mr. George Stephenson.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 06, 2012, 09:56:14 PM
If most modellers were honest I guarentee they all have a recast in their collection!

I tell you honestly---I have none. So, is the guarantee a cash prize of some sort? ;) :D
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 06, 2012, 10:02:55 PM

Wow! Where do I start?
 
First, I don't believe any good comes from sarcasm and name-calling and folks jumping down the throat of the author of the original post that started the thread. It is clear that he didn't have all the facts about recasting and the companies impacted by that practice.  And, getting all pissed off at the author of the second post wonít do anything to clarify what is concerning about his comments; he, too, clearly doesnít understand that highlighting photos of recast models would be offensive to the original producers of those kits.  And, then getting all pissed off at the UMA moderator wonít help folks better understand the anger and other emotions aroused by recasting; it wonít help anyone better understand the harm done by recasting; and, it wonít make anyone want to hear what victims of recasting have to say about recasts, recasters, and recasting.

So, letís see if there can be some civil discourse on all the issues raised by these three postings.

As you can imagine, I was initially appalled and disgusted when I read the first post.  The author wanted to share photos of model kits he had painted but the models included recasts of GEOmetricís vinyl kits.  I founded GEOmetric and the rights to GEOmetricís vinyl kits are STILL owned by me.  I did not sell the metal molds for GEOís vinyl kits and I still have a good-sized inventory of many of those original vinyl kits.  Still, I have to say that I appreciated the consideration shown by the author of the post that started the thread.  In asking if folks would be offended by showing photos of his recasted vinyl kits, he acknowledged how sensitive and emotional an issue it is for many of us. 
 
I was bummed when I read the second post from the UMA member who said he wanted to see the photos of the recasts.  In fact, he, too, is a very nice guy who had recently purchased and sent me photos of a finished Black Heart kit.  But it was clear to me that he, too, probably never understood how recasts impact small businesses like mine (GEOmetric and now Black Heart).
 
And I was disappointed by the UMA moderatorís response to the request to post photos.  I felt that an opportunity to educate folks about an important and difficult issue was missed.

So, I contacted the author of the original post and explained the mistake in his assumption that Horizon, Screaminí GEOmetric and Billiken wereĒ larger professional companiesĒ that he compared to Aurora.  It is obvious that a lot of folks think of the old GEOmetric as some kind of GK conglomerate with a work crew, sales staff, marketing department, customer service division and a receptionist.  In our best years, GEOmetric actually had all that in my partner and meÖ just the two of us with an occasional friend helping out when we were too busy! We were not some large professional company but a couple of guys working our tails off in rented warehouse space where we tried to eek out a living by producing licensed resin and vinyl kits.  Our friends at Screaminí and Horizon were no different.  We werenít AMT/ERTL or Revell-Monogram.  We scratched and fought for every penny we could make and the only thing that separated us from the typical GK producer was that we did it full time, produced vinyl kits, purchased licenses and pedaled our stuff at hobby industry trade shows. 

I explained to the author that vinyl recasts did serious damage to our business; that supporting folks who do recasting is supporting the same folks who helped drive my partner out of the GK business and played a significant role in my decision to sell GEOmetric (my baby!) and return to the full-time practice of law.  That took me about 5 minutes to write and send. 

Immediately afterward, I got this response from the author:
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me george. I had no idea that your Geometric designs was such a small companyÖ I assumed it was a large company. But that is precisely why I asked before I posted anything. For the record i didn't buy the recasts myself, they were given to me as a gift by a friend that has no idea what a recast even is. I wouldn't knowingly buy a recast, I prefer to sink what little money i have for the hobby into the new styrene kits. However, I didn't thinl these particular ones were AS BAD as some of the resin recasts because I thought, mistakenly, I know now, that these were from larger companies. I have alredy assured General Terry i won't bring them up again, and I won't, and i really thank you for setting me straight on the facts behind your company and the others as well- A recast is a recast.

 ďA recast is a recast,Ē he said.  I instantly felt better.  I should add that, in my opinion, it doesnít matter whether the kit being recast was produced by Revel-Monogram or AMT/ERTL or Aurora.  Size doesnít matter.  A recast is a recast.   

I then contacted UMA moderator, Terry Ingram, to discuss UMAís decision to lock the thread.  I was disappointed that he didnít respond more broadly to the request about posting photos of recasts.  I would like to have seen a response that explained more fully why UMA would not want to post photos of recast kits, that many good artists and GK companies have walked away or been pushed out by recasting.  I would like to have seen Terry express as much concern about the damage done by recasting as the concern he expressed about the hassle of dealing with more angry commentary and flameouts about recasting.   I was also disappointed and bothered by the locking of the thread because it cut off access to the best venue for responding to the three posts that were impacted me personally. 
I have stayed out of all the recast discourse controversy on UMA just as I have stayed out of most flameout controversies on various forums over the years.  Itís a waste of time trying to discuss an important issue about which folks are so emotional that the thing devolves into name-calling, sarcasm and insults.  Iíd rather be painting a model.  I understand UMAís position on the whole recast discourse controversy.  However, a more deliberate response to this post might have been a step toward making GK artists and producers feel that UMA is not a haven for recasters.  Still, the discourse on this subject has been so hostile that I understand why Terry just wanted to cap the thing but I wish he had responded differently.

Terry and I donít agree on every issue but having talked to him about UMAís position with respect to recasting, I understand why UMA doesnít want to get in the middle of accusations by one person about alleged recasting by another.  Who wants to have to play judge and jury about that in every case, especially when you don't know all the players and you have no way to determine who is right and who is not?  As a District Court Judge, I do that for a living but I have the benefit of seeing the faces of the accusers, the witnesses and the accused.  In court, I have the benefit of hearing and seeing (as opposed to reading) folksí allegations and answers and reactions, and then making an informed decision about what is presented to me. I have folks sit in the witness stand, swear to tell the truth and then identify themselves before telling what they have to tell.  They get questioned by an attorney, cross-examined by another attorney and sometimes, questioned by me.  They canít hide behind some anonymous screen name.  And even then, with all that, it is not always easy to tell whatís what and who did what to whom.  With respect to UMA and the recast controversy, reasonable people might reasonably disagree about whether it is reasonable for us to insist that forum moderators act like a district court judge every time there is a complaint about recasting.  Keep in mind, the mods on these forums, arenít getting paid to do this.  They are doing it for the love of the hobby and/or the love of monsters.

I expressed my concerns to Terry and asked for an opportunity to respond to the three posts that make up the thread.  He agreed.

Many of us have been involved in the hobby as collectors, producers, artists for many years and have a lot more experience with the recasting issue.  Iíve been involved in the hobby for almost 30 years.  But there are lots of new folks who have no idea what the big deal is about recasts, about how badly it suppresses the hobby.  We all know sculptors and producers who fled GK in disgust because their kits were being recast by folks right here in the U.S.  A number of resin kit producers, producers of high quality resin kits who were driven out of business by lower priced recasts of their kits.  Losing a handful of sales to recasters can be a significant loss to a small producer.  And, if you think the demise of GK leaders like Horizon and Screaminí had nothing to do with vinyl recasts of their kits, you are mistaken.  For this message to get across to folks, the conversation about the damage done by recasting has to remain civil.  When folks make it personal and toss insults and piss people off, nothing gets better.

For a couple of years now, rumors have flown about certain individuals having engaged in recasting.  In a number of forums, folks have called them names, made allegations, and made sarcastic remarks about them and engaged in personal attacks against them and their associates.  The rumor is those individuals got ticked at all the name-calling and contacted the studios and pointed them to a bunch of GK producers.  Whether all of those rumors and allegations are true is not relevant for the purpose of this post.  The question is: what good did all of that name-calling and negativity do anyone?  If all of the rumors are true, all of that name-calling and those personal attacks resulted in a number of folks getting cease & desist letters; resulted in nearly two dozen prominent GK producers contacting me about Universal and other copyright holders demanding as much as $25,000 for copyright infringement; resulted in prominent GK producers shutting down their websites, creating  passwords, requiring references for potential customers, and requesting that folks speak in some kind of silly code on hobby forums if they want to comment on a new kit.  Nice shooting.  Howís your foot?

And if all those rumors about those individuals are true, they are laughing their asses off now, arenít they?  I would be.

We, as a model kit ďcommunityĒ, need to get our act together.  We need to educate and to be educated about how these things impact the hobby.  We have to be better about communicating our opinions than we have been. Unfortunately, the angry and emotional discourse at UMA over the years has led to moderators wanting to immediately squelch any discussion of the issue.  There is so much anger over the issue that intelligent discussion of the issue cannot be had. Whoís to blame for all of this? Irrelevant!  Letís figure out a way to get that fixed.  Otherwise, weíll continue to have folks like the authors of the above posts (and Iím sure there are dozens if not hundreds of others) who are unaware of the impact of recasting.  As the author indicated, these recasts were a gift from ďa friend who has no idea what a recast even isĒ.  Do you think the author and his friend are the only two folks unaware of what recasting did/does to kit producers like GEOmetric, Needful Things, Black Heart, Screaminí, CellarCast, Alternative Images, Mike Hill, Horizon, Dimensional Designs, Nocturna, XO Facto, Billiken, Kim Ito, and dozens of other producers and artists?

We all need to chill for a minute about this issue.  We all need to think before posting insults and calling for boycotts and all that stuff.  If we care about the condition of our hobby, then we need to start doing things that will educate folks who donít know as much as those of us who have been around for a long time, those of us who have experienced some of this stuff.  I got one person, the author of this post, to better understand the impact of recasts.  Took me five minutes.   Between forum moderators, sculptors, producers and fans of garage kits, I refuse to believe that we canít all be smarter than we have been in dealing with recasts, recasting, and recasters. 

I donít expect everyone to agree with my views on this.  There is plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree about how to deal with these issues.  But, for those who think I see the world through rose-colored glasses, let me say this: I have been impacted as much as anybody out there by recasts.  There is no problem in this hobby that we cannot improve upon with some intelligent conversation.  We are all negatively impacted by recasting, ALL OF US.

GeoS



Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 06, 2012, 10:15:29 PM
Very eloquently spoken. A good reply! I have some Geometric stuff that I bought at Wonderfest years ago. My favorite being the Fiends without a Face kit even all these years later. You must be a heckuva a lawyer.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: RedKing on March 07, 2012, 01:18:56 AM
Thank you for that George, and thank you General Terry for unlocking this thread. After George wrote me, I thought it would have been a good idea if he could have responded to my thread the same way he wrote to me. I honestly had no clue GEOMetric,Screamin;,et al were small businesses.That's why I didn't thibk these were bad-all those companies are no longer in business, so who does it hurt? I've seen tons of Aurora recastsover the years, so how is this any different? I humbly stand correctd.These kits are alos honestly the first, and I will assure you the last, recasts I have gotten. I talked to my friend that gave them to me and explained the recasting situation and he felt really horrible, but now he, like me, knows better. He isn't a modeller so he had no clue these were unauthorized recasts, he just thought they were an amazing deal for kits he knew I would like as a late Christmas gift (we don't get to see each other very often). I am also very grateful for George having a level headed and calm approach and not attacking me as some kind of scumbag that enjoys ripping offGK makers, because I am defintiely not that! I have been an avid monster kit builder since I was 12 years old-almost 30 years and while my budget usually only allows me styrene purchases, i do have a lot of vinyl kits I bought years ago (before I was married) from Horizon,Billiken,Kaiyodo and Volks. I remember the boom in vinyl kits here in the 90s and was so disappointed when it ended. i always figured the market dried up or something, but these recasts have a lot to do with it and that is really sad. I would have loved Horizon,Screamin' and GEOMetric to have continued to producee new fairly inexpensive yet high quality vinyl kits. I was initially reticent to even post anything about these recasts i got and I thought it over for 2 or 3 days before I did post the way i did-as I knew it would be a sensitive issue. I am really gld I did now becuse otherwise I would not have learned just how much recasting hurt the hobby and the true nature of companies like GEOMetric,Horizon and the others.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 07, 2012, 02:59:43 AM
From the viewpoint of a collector and kitbuilder-
I would like to say I totally agree and understand everything George has said on the subject of recasting. I have been building and painting kits for over twenty years now.  im going to be completely truthful and admitt during my early years of collecting and learning about the hobby I would have purchased recasts, most of these I was totally unaware at the time were recasts as I bought them of reputable dealers that advertised in the now gone Model Mart.  I learned the hard way that recasts are not worth the money as they are of much inferior quality and simply were mostly a total waste of money, I also learned the hard way how to spot a recast.  As I got older and wiser? I appreciated the effort  and costs put in by companies like Billiken/Horizon to produce these kits and I do have a feeling of guilt that in some small way, I like many others had helped seal their demise and often think of what could have been in line of great kits these companies could have went onto produce.  What I was simply pointing out in my previous comment was 1 I wanted to see the finished paint jobs on these kits and 2 any modeller can write what they want, however most will have at least one recast in their collection, with or without their knowledge. 
my advice to anyone on the subject is simple - steer clear from recasts! They arent worth the money and hurt us as collecters! With experience I have found it is much better as a modeller to wait and keep searching for those original pieces you were looking as they always turn up for sale sometime and will give you greater pleasure building and painting them, for the original piece will always look much superior!
Spencer
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 07, 2012, 09:41:42 AM
Wow! Where do I start?

I see you've decided.

Hopefully though your interests aren't confined to just this one subject. There are thousands of other threads on this forum. So get yourself an avatar and start contributing!

 ;)
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 07, 2012, 10:08:10 AM
P.s I never bummed! anyone! not even George! Im a married man! :laugh:
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 07, 2012, 10:24:19 AM
...I also learned the hard way how to spot a recast.

I take it that the recasts are typically packaged in boxes that are copies of the originals. How then do you tell a recast, especially if they're being sold by "reputable" dealers?

Furthermore, how do you know that any garage kit of a licenced character has been properly authorized? Which garage kit manufacturers properly licence all their kits? Which do not?

 ???
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 07, 2012, 12:05:14 PM
Recasts come all kinds of ways.  Rarely are they are packaged to look like the original.  Iíve seen bootlegs of GEOmetricís kits in bags, in boxes with a photo done by the recaster, in boxes using a photo copied from the original box.  The easiest way to ID a vinyl bootleg is to know where the seller comes from.  If an American vinyl kit comes from Thailand, Hong Kong, China or Korea, you can be pretty sure it is a recast.  Resin bootlegs are harder to detect but again, knowing who is selling it, asking the seller if it is a recast, and looking at the price, will give you some clues.  If a guy is selling GEOmetricís $120 vinyl Pumpkinhead for $25, you should expect it to be a recast.  If the vinyl is white, it is a recast. Other vinyl kit producers can speak up about their experiences.  I can only talk about what Iíve seen.

I am not sure from your questions if you equate unlicensed kits with recasts.  I have heard this suggested by others on occasion and I am glad to have this forum to share my views on that.  Having negotiated licenses for all of GEOmetricís resin and vinyl kits (when I owned the company), I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience in the area of copyright law and licensing.  I think my experiences might change some minds about equating recasts and unlicensed kits.  Maybe not.

At GEO, we licensed a bunch of stuff through most of the major motion picture studios. We paid good money for those licenses and in return got assurances that we would be protected from recasters.  But when our Star Trek vinyl kits and Aliens and Predator vinyl kits started getting bootlegged, I contacted the heads of the licensing/legal departments at Paramount Pictures and 20th Century Fox to let them know and to have them do their thing. We expected that for a $25,000 license for Trek and $10,000 license for Aliens and Predator, those studios would protect their copyright and protect us, their licensee. I gathered sample recasts, packaging, catalogues, website addresses, brochures and contact info for the recastersers and then got the cooperation from our overseas distributors and stores who were being outsold by the recasters.

The Trek recasts pissed us off. Paramount said they would do something but they did absolutely nothing. They didn't even send a C & D to a company in Pennsylvania that was bootlegging one of our vinyl kits and re-producing it in resin...yeah, IN PENNSYLVANIA!!!  Our contract with Paramount prohibited us from taking any legal action. Only Paramount could get legal.

But the Aliens and Predator bootlegs killed us. It wiped about 20 to 30% of our business in the blink of an eye; they wiped out our international sales because the bootlegs were selling for $7.50. Our wholesale price was about $25. Folks in Europe decided ALL of our vinyl kits were overpriced.

I contacted the head legal guy at 20th Century Fox with all the info I had collected.  He said they couldn't help us because going after a Korean recaster was "not cost effective." He said they couldn't win against a Korean recaster. I pointed out the fact that the distributor that was selling the stuff all over Europe was not Korean but was an American Company...IN BALTIMORE, MARYLAND...Diamond Comic Distributors! I had Diamond's catalogue offering the recasts and using GEOmetric's box art to advertise them. Unbelievable when you consider that Diamond was also distributing GEOmetric's Alien and Predator kits. Even more unbelievable when you consider that Diamond had, just a couple of months before, solicited orders for GEO's Alien and Predator using the same photos.  Diamond could not deny what was in their catalogue.

I pointed that out to the legal guy at Fox. "George," he said, "we aren't going to go after every little shop that carries a couple of bootlegs of GEOmetric kits. It's just not cost effective."

I couldn't believe it. I asked, "Then why did we pay you $10,000 for the license?" He didn't have an answer ready for that. "And while you're thinking about that question, let me ask another. Why the f#%k should I worry about you coming after me when GEO refuses to pay you anymore royalties? It's not cost effective!" He didn't have an answer to that either. End of conversation. Clearly, they werenít concerned about a few hundred more vinyl Predator and Alien and Ripley kits being sold without royalties being paid to them.  And if they werenít worried about that, they sure werenít concerned about a guy selling 50 (if heís lucky) resin kits of an Alien.

I owned GEO for 5 more years after that. I never spoke to Fox or Paramount after that but GEO sold a bunch of Ripleys, Aliens and Predators and Trek kits during that 5 years. And we never gave a thought to paying even one penny in royalties. And they never asked. 

To protect your copyright, you have to enforce it by protesting against those infringing upon it.  If you donít, you can lose it.  The studios make calculated decisions about when it is in their best interests to enforce their copyrights.  When they tell a licensee, like GEOmetric, that enforcing their copyright is not cost effective, they are telling us, ďthis does not impact us enough to warrant our attentionĒ.  They enforce copyrights when they become concerned about unlicensed product interfering with their ability to make money from their copyrighted properties.  A recasterís infringement upon a $10,000 license and a $25,000 license was not enough to interfere with their ability to make money.  I made clear to the studio attorney that we were not going to pay royalties anymore.  Their lack of response was a calculated decision on their part.  And ultimately what they told me was, ďDonít let us see your stuff in Toys ĎRí Us or WalMart.Ē 

Letís not be naÔve; the studios are well aware of garage kits, most of which are unlicensed.  So, are they being hurt by some sculptor and/or resin kit producer who produces 50 (if heís lucky) unlicensed kits of the Predator?  But when some opportunist comes along and recasts that Predator, is the original kit producer being hurt?  Is the hobby being hurt when the sculptors and kit producers get so frustrated that they walk away from it?

I was an outspoken advocate for licensing but not now.  I applaud anyone getting a license and making that work.  I think licensing helps the hobby because licensed product is more likely to be broadly advertised  and more likely to bring in new modelers.  But if you equate unlicensed kits with recast kits, weíll have to agree to disagree.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Gillfan on March 07, 2012, 02:51:06 PM
George- I was with you 100%...until you said unlicensed kits and recasts are not the same.
Both profit some someone else's creation and work.
I can understand your frustration, I truly can, but I also remember the video-game company that sued Paramount over Trek and can't help but wonder if a similar action would have forced them to turn up the heat on the recasters.
http://www.thelogbook.com/zine/?p=686 (http://www.thelogbook.com/zine/?p=686)
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 07, 2012, 03:33:34 PM
Let's have a hypothetical. John Byrne drew X-men comics for awhile. He goes to a show and has 25 original art hand Drawings of Wolverine he is selling to raise money for personal reasons (artists dont have healthcare plans). He sells through the 25. Customer X buys  one, and instead of matting and framing it like customers A-W, he takes it home and traces another 20, and then tries to pass them off as original Byrnes, and pay for his purchase.

Byrne didnt break any licensing laws--he's a freelance artist and can draw whatever a fan requests. They do it at shows all the time, and they make good money at it. Marvel and DC couldnt care less. It isnt as if Byrne were selling fully finished statues, comics, prints or t-shirts and by-passing Marvel's cut. That they wouldn't tolerate. Its more of a limited deal among an extremely small group.

But the customer who bought a Byrne Wolverine sketch, took it home and made tracings, and is passing them off as original Byrne sketches is being outright dishonest. The item isnt an original Byrne.....no matter how much Customer X might wish people to think it is.

Years later, when one of the owners of an original goes to sell his treasured Byrne art sketch---a dealer tells him:"Thats pretty common. I bought one from Customer X and got it really cheap." Customer X, while being sneaky and trying to make a fast buck, has now hurt the original run of Byrne sketches done for whatever cause he did them for.This is the effect re-casters have on the hobby.

 If a re-caster already has the skill to reverse engineer a mold and make a re-cast...why not pay someone to do an original sculpt of their own and cast them up for a limited run? Because that requires using money to hire a sculptor. I think this may have started as a way for a Customer X to offset the cost of collecting by keeping the original and selling the phonies to subsidize his/her collection. Then it simply mutated into the quick money making thing it has become.

Byrne didnt cheat Marvel with his drawings. Customers A-W didnt cheat by paying for the items and matting and framing them on their wall, but there is an air of dishonesty that comes with Customer X's actions. Whether it was his/her intention or not. Thats the way i look at it anyway. Everybody gets hurt.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 07, 2012, 09:28:57 PM

Actually, Gillfan, you and I agree on the statement that recasts and unlicensed kits both profit from someone else's creation and work. I wasnít suggesting that they are not at all the same; I was discussing the differences between the two and discussing the harm done by recasts as opposed to the harm (or the lack thereof) that studios perceive is done by unlicensed kits.

But isnít it interesting that the recasts we are talking about here are all recasts of licensed kits?  Recasters didnít distinguish between licensed and unlicensed. They were only interested in saving themselves the expense of commissioning the sculpture by using the one I paid for.  So, if the recasters donít make the distinction between licensed and unlicensed, why should we?  The real issue here is recasting.  And the question UMA has been struggling with is ďwhat should UMA reasonably be expected to do when an allegation of recasting comes to UMA?Ē

Reasonable people might disagree about the damage done by unlicensed kits.  I submit to you, considering the responses of GEOmetricís former licensors, that except in the rarest of circumstances, studios arenít impacted by the few sales made by a producer of an unlicensed kit. You are doing well if you sell 50 copies of a resin kit.  If the studios were concerned about the sale of unlicensed kits, they would have been a lot more eager to slam recasters of GEO kits; they would have shut down Diamond Comicís distribution of those kits; Screaminí and Horizon might have produced vinyl kits beyond the 1990s; and the two dozen small garage kit producers I helped during the last couple of years, when Universal came calling, would have been fleeced of their gross sales and shut down.  The fact is, the studios know about garage kits and would be motivated to put a hurt on producers of those kits if they thought it impacted the studios ability to profit from their intellectual property. They know these sales don't impact them.  GEOmetric worked with a couple of dozen different licensors.  Except in the rarest of circumstances, they really weren't concerned about being damaged by GK sales.

But, there is simply no question about the damage that is done by recasting.  Again, look at three of the leading U.S. figure kit companies in the 90s, Horizon, Screaminí and GEOmetric.  Gone! with recasts playing a significant role.  Again, these were three companies producing licensed kits and recasters didnít distinguish between licensed and unlicensed.  And, sculptors and producers of unlicensed kits who create an original sculpture are also discouraged, by recasting, from contributing to the hobby when copies of their original sculptures and kits are copied and sold without their consent.

The ethics of licensing is a subject for another conversation that I am happy to have with folks.  But, I want to address the issue of recasts here because that is what the original post was about and that has been a difficult and concerning and emotional subject for GK artists and producers and the moderators of this forum.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: drlamont on March 07, 2012, 10:20:27 PM
I think most collectors would hesitate to buy a recast of a kit currently in production, but would be more willing to buy one of an older kit they might not otherwise be able to afford or find at all. Maybe someone should set up shop as an official recaster, paying royalties to the original kit makers for the right to recast and sell the kits. Since the original producers are no longer making anything off of these kits, and since they would have no expenses in the new venture, any money made would be 100% profit for them.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Gillfan on March 07, 2012, 10:46:04 PM
George- Your response is very eloquent. I see your point, and I must agree with you.

DrLamont- A great idea on the surface but 1) If a company is out of business, whom do you pay? 2) The whole licensing issue again.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 08, 2012, 12:50:01 AM
Thanks, Gillfan.  Appreciate that. 

drlamont: Of course, companies whose kits are being recast are free to do that.  That basically happens now when one company sells another company a prototype or master casting for that very purpose.  But then we aren't talking about unauthorized recasts.   

The controversy folks have been dealing with here on UMA involves recasting without the permission of the original producer.  That kind of recasting devalues the kit which is more valuable because of the limited production run.  A number of collectors like to buy two of a kit, one for painting and the other for investment.   The recasts also show shrinkage, loss of detail, and usually have problems with fitting of parts although these may not be as apparent until you see the original kit.

But, you know, it's cool when you reel in a kit that was produced as a limited edition kit and you know you got something rare and valuable that a limited number of folks will be able to get.  Isn't that one of the cool things about collecting?  Isn't that one of the cool things about seeing a friend's collection, seeing that he/she has some cool stuff that is very hard or impossible to find?  Unauthorized recasting diminishes that.

GeoS



Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr. Madd on March 08, 2012, 03:27:37 AM
You see, that's one of the odd things about UMA, before I signed on here, this whole issue was not an issue with me. I never thought about it.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: scorpio on March 08, 2012, 09:25:55 AM
well said george i could not agree more..
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 08, 2012, 09:46:56 AM
And the question UMA has been struggling with is ďwhat should UMA reasonably be expected to do when an allegation of recasting comes to UMA?Ē

The controversy folks have been dealing with here on UMA involves recasting without the permission of the original producer.

Actually UMA has decided not to struggle with the controversy. The stated policy is to let others do so elsewhere.

 u6juu
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 08, 2012, 10:43:44 AM
recasting is stealing, doing unlicensed kits is stealing there is no distinction. You are a judge george. you know better.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Haunted hearse on March 08, 2012, 11:14:32 AM
Considering that Disney has gone after small operations (like daycare centers) for using unlicensed images, I can't believe 20th Century Fox or Paramount would do nothing about people in this country making unauthorized kits using thier charaters.  thsi was stupid on their part.  As far as re-issues are concerned, I loved that Polar Lights reissued the Addams Family house, and it was fun to build.  I'm all in favor of official remakes of older kits, especially when it comes to building them.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 08, 2012, 11:55:01 AM
As far as re-issues are concerned, I loved that Polar Lights reissued the Addams Family house, and it was fun to build.  I'm all in favor of official remakes of older kits, especially when it comes to building them.

I like official reissues because they enable me to build something. I hate the idea of building an original collector's item kit from before 1980 or so, and I just won't do it.

 C:)

Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 08, 2012, 01:33:33 PM
recasting is stealing, doing unlicensed kits is stealing there is no distinction. You are a judge george. you know better.

You hit the nail on the head there!
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 08, 2012, 02:08:50 PM
Sorry but you are mistaken about that, Hepcat.  After Terry and I talked, one of the reasons UMA reopened this thread was to see if reasonable people might be able to come to some understanding of the recasting issue. He and I talked about a respectful conversation about that issue because that was the issue presented by the first post in this thread.

The hope is that members who donít really understand the controversy and folks who have been directly victimized, as well as those otherwise concerned about recasts, might better understand each other and to help UMA resolve some of the anger and confusion which has been frustrating for so many.  Terry Ingram thought it was worth dealing with the controversy.  Whether it devolves to more struggling and frustrating is up to you folks who wish to comment here.  Iím hoping to keep the conversation on this point that has caused UMA problems.

Frankly, I think a civil dialogue on this is important considering the impact recasting has had and continues to have on the hobby.  Clearly folks need to be aware of what recasting does and it's obvious from many of the comments in this thread that a number of folks are completely unaware and have never even thought about it.

Remember how this thread started. Kits for which I own the copyrights, kits that I still have in inventory, were recasted.  A person completely unaware of what a recast is, gave recasts to a member here.  That member did not know the significant damage recasting does generally and has done to me personally.  That member wanted to post photos of the recasts and he and I had a very productive and respectful exchange.  And now we are all having a discussion about the issue.  Had a discussion like this one (informational, reasonable, respectful) occurred months or even years ago, we might have avoided some of the frustration experienced by some UMA mods and some of the members here.

Hammerfan: As far as there being no distinction between recasts and unlicensed kits, I think I have explained that there are some differences between the two.  I think my experiences negotiating with more than 20 different copyright holders and studios since 1990, having sat and discussed these issues and distinctions with studio legal departments and licensing departments, having testified in a multi-million dollar lawsuit concerning allegations of copyright infringement, I am confident that I have a pretty good idea of what studios are concerned about and what they feel is harmful to their copyrights.  If you re-read my comments in this thread, I donít think you can find anything that you can factually disagree with.  In fact, the studio responses that I have recounted in this thread clearly show that, except in rare circumstances, the studios are neither harmed by, nor interested in, a producer in a small niche market like GK that produces so few kits.  Clearly, though, producing an unlicensed kit can result in a copyright holder holding you to account for the revenues they feel you have unfairly gotten by use of their copyrighted material. Iím not arguing with you on that point. 

I am discussing the issue that was originally raised by the first post of this thread that discussed sharing photos of recasts.  So, it sounds to me that we are all in agreement that recasts have no place in the hobby and on UMA.

But it sounds like folks want to discuss whether UMA should ban unlicensed products.  I wasnít aware that UMA members were upset about unlicensed products or that members here had been hurt by unlicensed products.  But, to those of you who have been victimized and hurt by unlicensed products, I would urge you to contact UMA moderators to let  them know that you want all unlicensed products to be banned. My hope is that this thread continue to be about recasting.  Iím happy to chime in if someone starts a thread about unlicensed products and the harm they have caused.  But, I am more concerned about the impact recasting has had on the hobby because GEOmetric was far more impacted by recasts of our kits than we were by unlicensed kits. 

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 08, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
Nice redirect your Honor. My point is, it is very difficult to take a moral stance on recasting when you are taking money out of the pocket of companies that own the rights to the IP 's that are being produced without license. I dont weep for Universal or Fox or any of the big boys, but that isnt the point.  You cant take the moral high ground about one issue and over look the other. and least not if you want to be taken seriously.  Garage kits used to be fun. I wish it was the same way now. People talked aobut kits, they traded kits and gave each other pointers. But then some new people came into the hobby who somehow got the idea that they shoudl be runnign the show and that thier morals should be imposed on everybody. These people created a fracture  in this hobby which has never ben healed.there are some none too bright acolytes of this group who feel that everything they say is gospel. I say take everything that is said with a large grain of salt. Why do peopel hide behind closed BBS and websites??  its gotten out of hand. And all because some people couldnt play nice.......
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 08, 2012, 03:10:06 PM
Larry, I'm not trying to re-direct.  Just trying to keep the thread on the issue that was started by the first post.  And, I agree with you that we don't need folks trying to force their opinions or morals on other folks.  I'm not telling folks how to conduct themselves in this hobby or even on this forum.  I just think it is good for folks to know the facts.  They can make up their own minds about what it right and wrong for them.

Since the first post was about GEO recasts, I wanted to respond to THAT.  Terry and I both hoped some good would come out of folks hearing the facts about how GEOmetric and others were impacted by recasting.  I haven't posted anything that I haven't experienced or seen first hand.  I haven't call folks names, haven't belittled anyone's opinion, and I'm not telling anyone to do one thing or another. 

But it was clear from the first couple of posts in this thread, and some of the later posts, that folks are not aware of the damage done by recasts.  I say, let folks make their own decisions about this stuff but let's have it be an informed decision.  And, like I said, if someone wants to start a thread about the evils of unlicensed products (I assume that would include figure kits, busts, masks, T-shirts, recasts, too, and other stuff), I'd be glad to chime in.

GeoS

P.S. Garage kits are still fun, man.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 08, 2012, 03:53:21 PM
Sorry but you are mistaken about that, Hepcat.  After Terry and I talked, one of the reasons UMA reopened this thread was to see if reasonable people might be able to come to some understanding of the recasting issue. He and I talked about a respectful conversation about that issue because that was the issue presented by the first post in this thread.

Hopefully the end result doesn't involve angry demands that posters be banned for activities outside of their posting on UMA, or other aggrieved posters quitting because their demands have not been met. That has evidently been the history of the issue being aired.

 :(
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 08, 2012, 03:57:01 PM
yes some good folk have been banned from a hobby site recently and all over the MOds gigantic and misguided ego.  its a shame. it should be about the fun of the hobby not somebodys trolling agenda  LOL
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 08, 2012, 10:20:11 PM
   I would like to ask a question, to HammerFan or HepKat . Have you ever recasted a kit and have you ever produced an unlicenced model kit?
   

   We heard one side of what recasting has done to Mr George, now I would like to hear why recasting shouldn't be of importance?Or the other point of view on why it is not that big of a deal as both of you seem not to care as much as some people do?


thank you
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: RedKing on March 08, 2012, 11:45:07 PM
Hopefully the end result doesn't involve angry demands that posters be banned for activities outside of their posting on UMA, or other aggrieved posters quitting because their demands have not been met. That has evidently been the history of the issue being aired.

 :(
That is exactly why i started this thread Hep. A good friend of mine who isn't a modeller got me these kits as a belated Christmas gift. I've never bought recasts before but I love sharing my kits here with everyone, and considering the problems we had before, I didn't want to start that fire again. i was hoping by asking everyone's opinions first, i could get some level headed responses. How it turned out so far has been even better in that George has explained calmly and reasonably how recasting impacted him and his company directly. I can also add that the quality of severaal of these recast kits are very poor. the large Michael Myers,and King Kong kits, as well as the standard size Frankenstein all have torsos that are flattened and will require a lot of work to reshape them and get them to fit together properly. to an inexperienced kit builder this would probably make it impossible for them to even build it... and honestly, I am not 100% certain I will be able to fix them myself, they may be unfixable, I haven't tried them yet. I can also see many areas on each kit that is lacking in detail, the worst being the Creature's hands-the palms are completly devoid of detail and one even has a hole in it that will need to be filled.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 09, 2012, 02:03:07 AM
Nice redirect your Honor. My point is, it is very difficult to take a moral stance on recasting when you are taking money out of the pocket of companies that own the rights to the IP 's that are being produced without license. I dont weep for Universal or Fox or any of the big boys, but that isnt the point.  You cant take the moral high ground about one issue and over look the other. and least not if you want to be taken seriously.  Garage kits used to be fun. I wish it was the same way now. People talked aobut kits, they traded kits and gave each other pointers. But then some new people came into the hobby who somehow got the idea that they shoudl be runnign the show and that thier morals should be imposed on everybody. These people created a fracture  in this hobby which has never ben healed.there are some none too bright acolytes of this group who feel that everything they say is gospel. I say take everything that is said with a large grain of salt. Why do peopel hide behind closed BBS and websites??  its gotten out of hand. And all because some people couldnt play nice.......

Sorry folks, but i think Hammerfan has a valide point here! Unlicensed kits, when you think about it seem as much as stealing as recasting!  This issue was raised first by George, so I would like to hear an explanation from George to how they are not!
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 09, 2012, 05:49:20 AM
Sorry folks, but i think Hammerfan has a valide point here! Unlicensed kits, when you think about it seem as much as stealing as recasting!  This issue was raised first by George, so I would like to hear an explanation from George to how they are not!


I'm not George---but re-casters dont confine their pilfering to unlicensed kits of iconic characters. If an original concept, public domain character, or even a licensed item is sculpted with talent by one of the big names....it's guaranteed the re-casters will pop out of the woodwork to make a quick buck off of somebody else's creation. It's like letting a 50 lb. house cat outside at the dawn of Spring. Every little flea or tick in town will seek to make a meal off the cat. But it's his blood.

My experience with re-casters has been this: they are in it for a quick buck, and will lie right to your face about it being a re-cast. Its all about offering counterfeit items for minimal effort for maximum profits. No other reason.

The canned commentaries like "It's for the fun of the hobby" are ridiculous. They are so thinly veiled that even Mr. Magoo could see through them. Anyone with a good grasp of the King's English, and an introductory class in psychology, can tell by reading the posts contained within this thread who here is a re-caster, a sympathizer,beneficiary, etc. The argument that "you made a kit, so now I have the right to re-cast it" is the same as saying "You let your cat outside during the spring, so its my right as a flea or tick to drain it dry." Not my cat.

Instead of crying foul (and making George address) the precautionary actions taken by producers~ just view the encrypted code, bannings, and password protected sites as a flea bath. Fleas and ticks can exist in the wild all they desire. But I dont have to let them in my house to infect or possibly kill what's mine. I wouldn't expect anyone else to either.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 06:13:41 AM
MY point is that whether you think recasting is bad or not, it is no worse than stealing someones intellectual property. the whole garage kit hobby was based on that. the excuse at the time was that the toy and kit companies didnt do certain characters or didnt do them well, therefore it was ok to do a predator, creature, et al. Now with all the statues, limited edition toys and prepaints there isnt a character that hasnt been done ad nauseum. recasting may have hurt the hobby. But what is killing the model building hobby is the abundance of prepaints, die casts, statues etc. Let face it. unless you are a good hobbyist and really love painting and building a kit. Most people are content to open a box and set a finsihed piece on the shelf. and they can buy it that way often a lot cheaper than building a kit.  its been said here that the companies who own the IP rights to these characters do really care about the garage kits. Well, Ive recieved two lawsuits from Marvel and Universal, because someone decided to turn me in to the companies. I know several garage kit companies who were also stung. so I submit that saying the companies dont care or dont do any thing about IP theft is pure fantasy.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr. Madd on March 09, 2012, 06:27:07 AM
Considering that Disney has gone after small operations (like daycare centers) for using unlicensed images, I can't believe 20th Century Fox or Paramount would do nothing about people in this country making unauthorized kits using thier charaters.  thsi was stupid on their part.  As far as re-issues are concerned, I loved that Polar Lights reissued the Addams Family house, and it was fun to build.  I'm all in favor of official remakes of older kits, especially when it comes to building them.

After Daycare centers? Isn't that kinda swatting a fly with a bazooka?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 09, 2012, 06:40:41 AM
Just an FYI: Polar Lights, Moebius, etc. re-popping a kit is NOT the same as a re-caster re-casting a kit. Polar lights, etc. pay fees and have permission, and actually spend money re-tooling the thrilling kits of day gone by.

If we all knew someone on the board that was making counterfeit AHI Creatures and passing them off as originals...we would have a collective coronary and all of monsterdom would end on the spot because we'd all drop dead. Re-casting an extremely limited "custom" garage kit and passing it off as an original isn't any different. Nobody should have to worry if they are going to get burned by collecting.

Re-casters are tantamount to the master forger. He can age paper, use vintage fountain pens, and fake Lon Chaney's signature to the point of near perfection.They have the skills...but they use them to defraud. No matter how close the fake AHI Craeture or the Lon Chaney forgery looks---they are still fake, and its still fraudulent. It's a rip off. Re-casting resin kits is the only arena of monster collecting where some folks will turn a blind eye. I'll never understand this.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Gillfan on March 09, 2012, 06:44:50 AM
After Daycare centers? Isn't that kinda swatting a fly with a bazooka?
It is, but part of maintaining a copyright is showing that you are protecting it. If you allow people to use your work without a licence it can slip into public domain. Cellophane was once a brand name, but it was used so generically that the copyright was lost.
The companies that own Styrofoam and Band-Aids are especially cautions about this. 

All that said, I have long thought Disney takes the wrong approach. One of my favorite incidents happened when they went and sued a school to repaint over the images on their walls and WB came in and, for free, painted WB characters over the Disney characters. It was a genius PR move.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 07:40:38 AM
Its funny that people are selective about who they allow to "get way " with recasting and then chastise others. For example Wonderfest used to allow a certain fellow from Tennessee to blatantly sell recasts for years, and then when he recasted a certain magazine producers kit, he was banned from the show. Hwy was it ok to sell recasts before this? He used to set up at Chiller too, for years. then for the same reasons he was banned. And yet you can go to either show now and it you look around recasts are still being sold, with not a whimper from the promoters. that seems a bit....hypocritical  to me.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: monsterphile on March 09, 2012, 07:50:28 AM
Let's not let this thread deteriorate into taking pot shots at other posters.  It was a great idea for Terry to reopen this thread to allow an intelligent and calm discussion.  If it starts to go downhill, that would be disrepsectful to Terry.

The issue with recasting has certain key issues that make it a sticky situation. 

We'll start with licensed kits, like George did initially with his old business.  He did exactly as he was supposed to do.  He secured the license for the properties from the license holder, thereby producing official license kits.  When people started making unlicensed copies of his stuff, they corporation did not pursue any legal action to stop these recasters from making bootleg copies.  The big company/studio failed to do what they should have done.  Whether or not the contract specified that they legally HAD to enforce the prevention of these bootlegs, they SHOULD have.  I realize that the foreign sellers are more difficult to pursue, but they certainly could have made an attempt to stop a domestic importer from doing so, especially someone like Diamond.

When the big corporation failed George and even admitted that they had no intention of living up to their moral obligation (corporation = moral...yeah, right!), Geo said, "Well, if you don't care about enforcing the license and have directly told us so, we'll go on alone.  Was this legally right?  Of course not, but arguably justifiable.  We know that over the years, the larger studios have made money off of TV shows, films, and other creative properties and because contracts had never taken into account future syndication and licensing; actors, creators, and artists got screwed out of money. 

As far as unlicensed garage kit makers go--yes, we understand that they are typically not making a large number of these items, and any profit made from them is minimal.  Again, yes, they are legally violating  the copyright of whoever owns that property.  Certainly, there are a lot of properties, especially in horror and Sci-Fi that sit dormant for decades with the companies/license holders never doing anything with them.  The garage kit maker creates and manufactures a limited run (typically) of a character/film and does, in fact, violate copyright law.  Legally, it's wrong, especially if it's based on the likeness of an actor (as opposed to a rubber-suited monster or a spaceship), because the actor (or their estate) is left out of the loop also.  It's often hard to feel sorry for the studio not being shown any consideration, especially when they themselves shown little consideration to those that created these designs or characters for them.  WHen the show/movie/chacter is a current license, it's trickier.  If someone is doing a garage kit of Spider-Man, they are using a character that is currently in use and will be experiencing a resurgence when the new movie comes out.  However, unless there's a company out there selling a licensed model kit of Spider-Man, the garage kit will have little effect on the success of selling other Spider-Man merchandise.  The only one that loses is the corporation.  Whether one can live with that, is up to the individual. 

Let's look at the recaster.  They are violating everyone all the way down.  They're copying someone else's work, whether or not the original was licensed.  If it's an item that's currently still in production/available, they are directly competing with the originator.  They have shown no originality or creativity.  They are like the kids that copy test answers off of someone else's paper in school.  At this point, the recaster occupies the lowest level.  The problem is, they don't care, especially if it's a knock off from overseas. 

There is another tricky situation with garage kits that does work against the original makers.  That's the idea of the kit as a collectable.  More than any other monster collectable, the garage kit is arguably meant to be opened and used.  Seldom is the original packaging very displayable as part of a collection.  Garage kits definitely look better assembled and painted on a shelf.  The problem arises when someone wants to make and display one of them and due to cost, either original or marked up for OOP items, can not get one.  Heck, even styrene kits these days are getting up there in price.  It's certainly frustrating for the modeler that wants to make one if they can't find one, but they may just have to accept the fact that they may not be able to find one.  The recaster poses as someone who is helping such individuals, but they're just taking a shortcut and letting someone else do all the work for them.  If you want to a model of a an old character, here's an idea: come up with your own sculpt and design and manufacture your own garage kit.  Don't ride on someone else's success, do it yourself.  If you want to make a Nosferatu garage kit (as an example) don't made a direct copy of someone else's model, do your own pose of the chacter with your own base/backround.  If you have the facilities to make copies, you can use those same facilities to make your own originals. 

For the record:

I am not a recaster.
I am not a grage kit maker.
I can't sculpt to save my life, but I wish I had the ability to be able to do what they do. 

I have probably 30 or so styrene kits of varying ages that need to be started, completed, restored, or repainted.  I have 4 licensed vinyl kits that also need the above processing to be done (BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA as a werewolf,  the monster from THE RELIC (Kolgotha?), and the  Tsurbaya(sp?) Wolf Man, and Screamin's werewolf.  I have one little resin model of Darkness from LEGEND.  I got it off of Ebay many years ago, but did nothing with it because I had no idea how to do a resin model.  I think it came in a bag with a header card, but I'm not sure if I saved the packaging.  It's a tiny little guy and I'm hoping that's why it was packaged that way.  Next time it surfaces, I''l try to get someone to ID it as either an original (the I'll I'll keep it and try to assemble and paint it) or a recast (I'll toss it).  Are racasts done in resin also or just vinyl?

Rob
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 08:39:26 AM
that sound like one of my 120mm kits(legend). sure recasts are done in resin. that is far easier than redoing a vinyl modl which is very costly except in asia.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
this almost parallels the download of movies and music debate. a lot of people feel its ok to download a movie off the internet, which is theft of intellectual property. But then look down on people who download the movies et al and then resell the product, becauase that is bootlegging.  how is either one more heinous than the other?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 08:56:28 AM
So i guess the thread here is saying that stealing from the big boys(IP theft) is ok and recasting an unlicensed kit(stealing from a thief) is not ok?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 09, 2012, 09:06:04 AM
Larry and Dr. Acula: If you are advocating banning unlicensed products from UMA, please bring  that discussion in another thread.  I've been pretty clear about my views on unlicensed kits.  But the fact is that recasters don't bootleg only or even primarily unlicensed kits.  The recast kits referred to in the opening post to this thread were all LICENSED.  The moderator here re-opened this thread to discuss recasts.  Bringing unlicensed products and pre-paints sidetracks the discussion of recasting that has been a huge problem for UMA mods.  We are hoping to bring some sanity to the discussion of recasting and most of the commentary here has been about that issue.  If you want to discuss unlicensed products, which would also include T-shirts and masks and other product, I'll gladly respond to that in another thread.  I'm not afraid to deal with that issue either but in another thread.  Thanks, guys.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 09:27:56 AM
Once again George, it comes down to credibilty and gravitas. It is hard to take someone ranting about recasting seriously when they are guilty of IP theft. By thier own admission.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 09:35:06 AM
Does anyone here still go to Wonderfest??  There are certainly plenty of recasts for sale there. Yet I dont here anybody whinging about  it.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 09, 2012, 10:08:34 AM
   Hello, I don't mean to beat a dead horse,but I did not see a reply to my questions? And after seeing you speak about Wonderfest and recasting I'm going to assume you are in the resin business?

So again I would like to know, has Hammerfan or HepKat ever produced an unlicensed kit or made recasts of existing kits?

I am undecided about my true feelings of this subject,so before I make my decision I would like to hear from both sides. I have read at length Mr. George's statements,now I would like to hear from HepKat & Hammerfan's answers to my questions.

thanks
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 10:30:09 AM
I have done both. but i am not afraid to admit it. unlike some here who like to poke fingers, but wont talk about their past and in some cases present actions. I am not playing the angel here. I am simply stating that you cant say that recasting is wrong if you are guilty of ip theft
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 10:35:36 AM
let me rephrase that. You can say recasting is wrong, but it makes you out to be a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 10:52:51 AM
As far as unlicensed garage kit makers go--yes, we understand that they are typically not making a large number of these items, and any profit made from them is minimal.  Again, yes, they are legally violating  the copyright of whoever owns that property.  Certainly, there are a lot of properties, especially in horror and Sci-Fi that sit dormant for decades with the companies/license holders never doing anything with them.  The garage kit maker creates and manufactures a limited run (typically) of a character/film and does, in fact, violate copyright law.  Legally, it's wrong, especially if it's based on the likeness of an actor (as opposed to a rubber-suited monster or a spaceship), because the actor (or their estate) is left out of the loop also.  It's often hard to feel sorry for the studio not being shown any consideration, especially when they themselves shown little consideration to those that created these designs or characters for them.  WHen the show/movie/chacter is a current license, it's trickier.  If someone is doing a garage kit of Spider-Man, they are using a character that is currently in use and will be experiencing a resurgence when the new movie comes out.  However, unless there's a company out there selling a licensed model kit of Spider-Man, the garage kit will have little effect on the success of selling other Spider-Man merchandise.  The only one that loses is the corporation.  Whether one can live with that, is up to the individual. 

Let's look at the recaster.  They are violating everyone all the way down.  They're copying someone else's work, whether or not the original was licensed.  If it's an item that's currently still in production/available, they are directly competing with the originator.  They have shown no originality or creativity.  They are like the kids that copy test answers off of someone else's paper in school.  At this point, the recaster occupies the lowest level.  The problem is, they don't care, especially if it's a knock off from overseas. 

Well said Rob. You make some very good points in your well thought out post. The recaster, from my observations, doesn't care one way or another about licensed or unlicensed products. The recaster simply pours rubber over somebody else's product, expense, and/or idea. This is not only done without any concern or regard for unlicensed or licensed products, it is also done without any regard to the expenses paid by the original kit producer; expenses such as paying a sculptor and/or mold maker for the end product. It's theft no matter how you gift wrap it. And to continue to compare it to producing unlicensed merchandise is an attempt to deflect the issue. You can't put out a fire by pouring more flammable material on it. It's still a fire no matter how large it spreads.

Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 09, 2012, 10:56:11 AM
Thank you Hammerfan for your reply,and of course your honesty.

If you have participated in both these actions then why are you so upset about the industry in itself? It seems that at one point or another you saw it as a viable thing to do and not look at it as stealing from an IP owner as you mentioned? Have you only done these things once or twice or have you done it more then a few? Does that include recasting and making unlicensed resin kits more then once?

I am just trying to understand everyone's point of view to grab a better understanding. I hope you do not think I am trying to be too nosey.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 11:05:23 AM
[admin]I would respectfully ask everyone to please try and stick to the subject of this thread - recasting other individuals (or companies) model kits. I fully understand how this topic has diverged into the discussion of unlicensed vs licensed merchandise, but I feel this thread is being done a disservice when we try and discuss both topics under the same thread. I am fully open to exploring the controversy of unlicensed vs licensed merchandise in another thread. That way both topics will get the full attention they deserve. And as others here have already noted, they too will gladly discuss said subject matter at another thread dedicated to just that topic. Thank you.[/admin]
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 11:23:33 AM
I've created a new thread dedicated to discussing unlicensed vs licensed products (including model kits).

Please try and discuss said topic at its respective thread.

That discussion can take place here - http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=17360.new#new (http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=17360.new#new)
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 11:26:46 AM
Thank you Hammerfan for your reply,and of course your honesty.

If you have participated in both these actions then why are you so upset about the industry in itself? It seems that at one point or another you saw it as a viable thing to do and not look at it as stealing from an IP owner as you mentioned? Have you only done these things once or twice or have you done it more then a few? Does that include recasting and making unlicensed resin kits more then once?

I am just trying to understand everyone's point of view to grab a better understanding. I hope you do not think I am trying to be too nosey.
I am upset??  perhaps you misunderstood me monsterboy. Im only upset that someone is given a platform and then gets on their high horse about certain activities but they are guilty of other shady activities. in the courts(well not kangaroo courts) a person who testifies but has a record of  known crimes has little or no credibility. Trying to steer away from that doesnt change that fact. People do whatever they will do Im not the one making a big deal of this
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 11:29:51 AM
Terry can modify this thread or close it. its his show. but it seems a bit lop sided when someone with an agenda is given a free platform and then when he is called on it they want to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 11:38:34 AM
Terry can modify this thread or close it. its his show. but it seems a bit lop sided when someone with an agenda is given a free platform and then when he is called on it they want to start a new thread.

I have no intentions of closing it. I've only "modified" it to separate the two distinct issues. As I've already noted in an earlier post, I can easily understand how recasting discussions can lead to licensing discussions. Its been a component of this debate for a long time. And its certainly not unique to this thread, or for that matter, even George Stephenson. This is a topic that stands all alone and is certainly worthy of further discussion. And I strongly encourage you Hammerfan to partake in it as George has promised to do. But this discussion here is in regards to recasting model kits. And that is how it will remain.

And just for the record, everybody here is given a "free platform". The UMA is built upon open and transparent discussion and the exchange of ideas and/or opinions (under our TOS). George has been given nothing more or less.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 09, 2012, 11:44:05 AM
Hello, I don't mean to beat a dead horse,but I did not see a reply to my questions?

So again I would like to know, has Hammerfan or HepKat ever produced an unlicensed kit or made recasts of existing kits?

...I would like to hear from HepKat & Hammerfan's answers to my questions.


Patience! I'm not on 24/7.

1. I've never recast a kit.

2. I've never cast any kits whatsoever.

3. I've never bought a recasted kit.

4. I've never bought any resin or garage kits at all. I have, however, admired pictures of many.

My chosen area of play is somewhat different. Here are some pictures of my main model cabinet:

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/NewFullModelCabinets006.jpg)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/NewFullModelCabinets005.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/FullOpenModelCab2.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/ModelCabinetTop.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/ModelCabinetSlotCarKits.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/ModelCabinetWeird-ohsandRatFinks.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/ModelCabinetMiddle.jpg)
 
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/ModelCabinetAuroraKits.jpg)
 
Here are a few pictures of my board game, lunch box, miscellaneous toy and overflow model cabinet:

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/GameCurio.jpg)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/LunchBoxes.jpg)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/GameCurio3.jpg)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/MidGameCurio.jpg)

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g434/Balticprince/LowerGame.jpg)

Come around more often. You'll find that I make my interests almost as obvious as the spelling of my name.

 ;)
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 12:01:54 PM
nice collection hepcat
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 09, 2012, 12:47:24 PM
Larry and Dr. Acula: If you are advocating banning unlicensed products from UMA, please bring  that discussion in another thread.  I've been pretty clear about my views on unlicensed kits.  But the fact is that recasters don't bootleg only or even primarily unlicensed kits.  The recast kits referred to in the opening post to this thread were all LICENSED.  The moderator here re-opened this thread to discuss recasts.  Bringing unlicensed products and pre-paints sidetracks the discussion of recasting that has been a huge problem for UMA mods.  We are hoping to bring some sanity to the discussion of recasting and most of the commentary here has been about that issue.  If you want to discuss unlicensed products, which would also include T-shirts and masks and other product, I'll gladly respond to that in another thread.  I'm not afraid to deal with that issue either but in another thread.  Thanks, guys.

GeoS

Hi george Im in no way advocating banning anything, licensed or unlicensed.  You brought up the subject of having produced unlicensed products to the thread and I feel Hammerfan is correct to address it.  I simply just loving collecting and painting and had never considered any of the subjects mentioned here before.  I must congratulate UMA  here for allowing this discussion as I feel it is very productive to hear the issues kit manufacturers are having.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 12:50:29 PM
Forgive me Terry if I misunderstood. Ive thought that the recasting debacle was off limits here so I was surprised to see it revived again.  it does seem odd though that it was a dead subject for so long and then becomes a live one when George has an opinion. Mea culpa if that was percieved as being given special treatment.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr Acula on March 09, 2012, 12:59:44 PM
Hepcat that is an amazing collection there! I dont know how you manage to keep all those kits boxed! Id have em opened and painted! lol
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 09, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
I dont know how you manage to keep all those kits boxed! Id have em opened and painted! lol

I'd regard that as vandalism. I can build reissues.

 :o
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 01:21:28 PM
Forgive me Terry if I misunderstood. Ive thought that the recasting debacle was off limits here so I was surprised to see it revived again.  it does seem odd though that it was a dead subject for so long and then becomes a live one when George has an opinion. Mea culpa if that was percieved as being given special treatment.

The following text is from an earlier post of mine here at this thread explaining my reason for unlocking this thread:

Once a thread is locked it usually stays locked. A few days ago I received a call from a good friend of mine - George Stephenson. George is the former, and original owner, of GeoMetric Designs - a model kit company originating here in Minneapolis. George and I go way back. I have a lot of respect for George. George had expressed his disappointment in my locking this thread. He felt it was a missed opportunity for a "recast" discussion that could have possibly been constructive. Imagine that ... a discussion about recasts that could actually have a good outcome! Wow, I wondered what George had been smoking. The history here at UMA in regards to the flammable topic of recasting has been anything but constructive. In fact, its been nothing but destructive. Destructive to the point where the entire forum almost explodes in anger. Henceforth, our decision to typically squash such discussions like a disease ridden housefly. We refuse to allow such fires to burn down our community. We've worked too hard to build it up. And besides, its not our job, and never will be, to police and enforce the model kit community. We administrate our forum to our own Terms Of Service. Those our the rules of which we moderate from and those are the rules we enforce. With that having been said, I fully realize there are plenty of individuals who don't care for our rules. They feel we condone recasting simply because we adhere to our set of rules and not theirs. They are frustrated when we don't ban somebody they ask us too. They seem to want to run our forum according to their rules and needs. And in turn, they've become more disruptive than the folks they are trying to exterminate. And so the story goes ... again and again and again.

BUT .. I have been asked for an opportunity to have a calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion on this subject. Imagine that. Are such things possible? Well, I guess we'll find out. I've decided to grant George his request. The discussion is open for just that - calm, level headed, rational, and educational discussion. And I ask that you please adhere to that tone. Let's see if we can actually break new ground here without breaking our forum and somebody's skull in the process?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
I would also like to point out that unlocking this thread wasn't done with the intention of a creating a "witch hunt."  And I know that wasn't any part of George's agenda either. We both agreed that unlocking this thread just might be the first small step in a healing process that is long overdue. This can only be obtained through calm and rational reasoning - something of which has been missing from all previous resin disruptions, I mean discussions, in the past. And both sides of the battle are to blame. I repeat .. BOTH SIDES OF THE BATTLE ARE TO BLAME. This is what many times leads the UMA to just locking threads and saying "to hell with it." Name calling, threats, flaming remarks, and outright juvenile behavior doesn't make for a healthy community. And I won't have it.

So .. I encourage the discussions to continue in a respectful and courteous manner. Only then can true progress be made and healing begin. Ask questions, feel free to express opinions, but please do so with the respect and understanding of others. It's not asking for a lot, I feel.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 02:24:16 PM
here's a thought. If you take a stand against recasting, should you attend a model kit show where recasts are sold?  case in point wonderfest. which while it states that they take a stance against selling recasts actually do a poor job of inforcing it. Ive seen numerous recasts being sold there and no one seems to bat an eye. yes certain folks have been banned for selling there, even more ironically that they had been selling recasts there for years without any problem. This was true of Chiller too, although i cant say if anyone even sells kits at Chiller anymore as I havent bothered going in years. I know the new Resintopia show is taking a stand against recasts at least per their promoter Count Fritz. I do know some people who will be going to that show and will be able to verify if they are really inforcing that policy or if they are just offering lip service to the powers  that be.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 09, 2012, 02:51:16 PM
I agree with Larry that folks should speak up about a recast being sold at conventions, in a magazine, on a forum, on eBay.  But, if you don't show up and speak up, the recasters just keep getting away with it.  Sounds to me like Larry is advocating that we speak out on the issue of recasts at conventions and I agree with that but let's keep it respectful and productive like we have here.

I attend WonderFest every year and and a few other shows.  I have no doubt that folks have sold recasts there but I have never heard about recasts being brought to their attention without the organizers of that show doing something about it.  I've even seen them take action against recasters.  But, maybe Larry's experience has been different than mine.  I would hope all the forums and conventions and hobby magazines would make clear to folks that recasts are not welcome. 

As I understand it, the problem that UMA has had with this issue is that  folks upset by recasters want the moderators here to ban folks.  As I said earlier in this thread, the mods aren't in a position to investigate and act as judges over all the allegations that might come up here.  So, just as folks have been respectful and reasonable in this thread, i would hope that folks with complaints about recasters would be respectful and reasonable.  If folks make this ugly, why would UMA or anyone else want to get involved?  Many of us see this forum as a venue for selling the stuff we produce, for buying the stuff we want, for passing along and receiving information we want.  Why screw that up?

I just think folks need to step back and relax a bit.  No need for personal attacks and insults.  That goes nowhere.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Toy Ranch on March 09, 2012, 02:55:22 PM
I believe that a lot of the problem in the way of coming to a point of healing and acceptance is that there are chiefly 2 (or more) private groups of garage kit hobbyists.  One group is vehemently anti-recasting, and the other is accepting of it or engaged in recasting. Both groups have a group rhetoric about the topic.  If you want to belong to one of the groups, you have to accept the group's philosophy regarding recasts and licensing.  Even if you privately hold some nuanced views, you dare not utter them, or risk being re-educated or shunned and cast from the group.  Reciting the group's philosophy in new and different terms wins praise and respect from the group and it's members, while anything outside the group's view is subject to criticism or worse.



If you aren't in one of the groups, and you just like monsters and cool models, you don't have access to some of the kits that are only available to members of the group.  These may be unlicensed garage kits, or they may be recasts or recast parts. I say "unlicensed", because the licensed kits are obviously going to be available to the general public.  If you want to become a member of one of the groups, attacking the other group and championing the group's philosophy may not guarantee admittance and acceptance, but certainly it smooths the road to it.   So if I wanted to gain access to the pro-recast group, I could visit various hobby boards and make snide comments about the work of members of the other group, and throw in some opinions about how recasting is OK, and maybe learn to do a mold and recast a couple of things.   Likewise, if I wanted to join the anti-recast group, I would figure out who the "bad guys" are, and take some pot shots at them, and talk about how all recasts are bad and destroy the hobby.

This leaves no room for healing, or understanding. You are either with or against both of them.  The UMA has been subject to disruption from both sides, because we don't take a side.   We have taken the side that recasts are not allowed to be sold on the UMA.  For not taking a stronger stand, we have been regularly attacked, as "giving safe haven to recasters" or being "pro-recaster".  Since we have not adopted the philosophy of either group, we are the bane of both. 

My PERSONAL opinion...  I can see both sides.  I can understand why someone might want a kit they can't afford, and buy a recast.  I can understand why some hobbyists feel this destroys the hobby.  I can see the licensing issue, and why the pro-recast group feels as they do...  and I can see why the anti-recast group doesn't accept that.  Because of that, I'm universally hated and disliked by both sides.  So good luck achieving some sort of understanding and/or healing.  Even if some members of either side wanted it, they would probably be afraid to say so.  There will always be people recasting kits, whether it's Joe Blow and Ron Recaster or China and Taiwan. 

So I'll finish with a story that I've told before.  Years ago, I was buying some gift items at a wholesale place close to my office, and I was selling them on eBay.  One day, they had a bunch of Alien figures (from the film).  They were 14" long or so, and made of solid resin.  There were 15 or 20 of them, and I bought them all.  I put them on eBay and started selling them.  I think I paid $10 each, and they sold for $40, and were selling pretty well.  One day, I got a message from someone who said it was a recast model kit.  OK, whatever...  I paid $10 each, and they are selling for $40 each.  I'm not going to throw them away.  My customers don't care about model kits, they are happy to have a cool Alien figure.  Then I got some more messages, these were more hostile.  I just ignored them.  So was I wrong to do what I did?  Some would say yes.  Some would say no.  I didn't intend to be involved in "recasting" but if I walked up on the same figures again today, and I weren't in the midst of this mess, I would buy them again.  Since I'm an admin at the UMA, I wouldn't.  If I were not an admin at the UMA, yeah, I'd do it again.  They were already here.  Someone is going to sell them.  Might as well be me.  The people who buy them are not model hobbyists, they are Alien fans.  If it were more expensive, or if they had to put it together, they wouldn't buy it. 

That's what I mean about a nuanced view.  It's OK from my point of view.  It's not OK from someone else's.  Both of us are right, from our respective points of view.  I've thought about it, my mind is not going to change.  I don't expect anyone else's mind to change either.  So where does that leave us?  Can I buy the Aliens and sell them and not piss anyone off?  lol, nope.  At the same time, I don't think it's OK to go out and recast someone's model kit and sell it as a model kit.  I would never buy a model kit, build it, and make casts of it and sell it as a figure. 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
A good point Bobby. it is easy to villify people when you dotn know the whole story or a told the story by someone with an axe to grind.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 03:52:12 PM
even though ive put out over 100 original kits, i still get pegged as a "evil recaster" ive done recasts, but ive admitted that. I wish some others who have done the same things would have the moxey to admit it.  but they wont. because they have an agenda. I think even George would agree that there is an amazing amount of hypocracy in this hobby.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 09, 2012, 05:22:32 PM
Its been apparent to me that both sides of the battle seem to stoke each others flame. One side will slander a certain individual on the other side thereby prompting the offended individual to react in slandering them, or worse yet, by recasting one of their kits. And back and forth it goes. It truly has turned into a hobby all unto itself. Forget about the models, it now seems much more common to invest endless time and energy in slandering one another. Some hobby forums tend to spend more time bad-mouthing individuals then they do spend on discussing the model kits themselves. It's a lynch mob mentality and its really quite pathetic. And this is yet another example of why the UMA will not engage itself in such matters.

So how do we fix this? I think both sides need to ask themselves this question. And I'm wondering how many even want to fix this?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Scatter on March 09, 2012, 05:41:45 PM
Gentlemen, we're dealing with matters of personal ethics. If an individual's ethics will not allow them to re-cast or steal IP without robbing him of slumber, then that is his stance and he should refrain. If another's ethics allows him to do so and sleep like a baby, that is his stance. You're NOT going to force your ethical disposition onto another free and sentient being. Period.

If your personal ethics won't allow you to attend conferences where re-casters are present, then don't go. If your personal ethics won't allow you to buy a superior unlicensed garage kit in lieu of a slipshod and patently disrespectful licensed product, more power to ya. But to believe that you can argue, or boycott, or insult, or harangue others to bend to your own personal ethical compass is simply spitting into the wind.

 To thine own self be true........no others need apply.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: monsterphile on March 09, 2012, 06:08:58 PM
On the Wonderfest question:

I've never been there, but I have been to other large cons like Chiller and Monster Mania here in NJ.  I can't speak for the organizers of Wonderfest, but what everyone has said so far in this thread, they have taken steps to remove recasts from the convention.  In running a large convention, I imagine that they have a million and one other things to do that would take precedence over policing vendors' wares.  If a vendor has a whole table that are obviously recasts, it's easier to detect than a vendor that has all sorts of stuff for sale with some recasts mixed in. 

Once again, like the issue that the UMA faces, policing for and evaluating recasting claims must be a bugger for someone running a convention.  For them to find spare time to do that can't be any fun.  The problem with the conventions of this sort is that the people running it are also fans and want to participate as much as they can in the festivities.  You just try to do your best. 

Rob
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: FACTO2 on March 09, 2012, 06:09:35 PM
Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

Iíd like to toss in a point that hasnít been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesnít sell then itís going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isnít a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  Iíve produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I havenít even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, Iíve produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didnít sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If youíre lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  Itís a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And Iíd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  Iíve seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector whoís has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but thatís kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because theyíve been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Scatter on March 09, 2012, 06:11:40 PM
   The problem with the conventions of this sort is that the people running it are also fans and want to participate as much as they can in the festivities.  You just try to do your best. 

Rob

Precisely. If that's not good enough, then start your own convention. It's so much easier to criticize than participate though.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Scatter on March 09, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

Iíd like to toss in a point that hasnít been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesnít sell then itís going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isnít a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  Iíve produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I havenít even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, Iíve produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didnít sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If youíre lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  Itís a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And Iíd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  Iíve seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector whoís has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but thatís kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because theyíve been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.

I'm far, FAR more vehemently against re-casting personally, because of the reasons you and George have cited. It literally KILLS businesses and livelihoods.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Toy Ranch on March 09, 2012, 06:38:52 PM
Thought long and hard before posting to this thread...

Iíd like to toss in a point that hasnít been made yet.  Independent garage kit producers usually rely on the sales of one kit to finance the next.  If the kits a flop and doesnít sell then itís going to be a lot harder to finance the next kit.  Despite what some people think, there isnít a whole lot of money in producing kits.  Mostly the producers do it for the love of the subject matter.  Iíve produced a lot of kits over the years.  On some of them, I havenít even sold ten.  Nowhere even close to breaking even.  But, luckily, Iíve produced a few successful ones that have off set the cost of the ones that didnít sell. 

Point being, for the most part, it is a break even proposition.  If youíre lucky, you sell enough to hire a sculptor to do another sculpt for you and maybe even have enough to pay for the molding and casting.  And trust me, using sculptors like Yagher, Hill, West, Laudati aint cheap.  But, they produce the best sculpts.

I have had six of my kits recasted over the years.  That hurt me.  It hurt my ability to hire a sculptor.  It hurt my ability to pay for silicone and resin.  It hurt my ability to take ads in the hobby magazines.  In other words, as an independent garage kit producer who was trying to help and support the rest of the hobby, I was hindered by the financial loss caused by recasts.  Not only me, sculptors, molders and casters, magazine producers, painters, etc.  Itís a ripple effect and hurts the entire hobby.

And Iíd just like to emphasize a point George made a few pages ago.  The collectors value of his or her collection.  Iíve seen some kits sell on ebay that have gone for absolutely ridiculous prices.  I say bravo to the seller and to the collector whoís has and is willing to spend that kind of coin.  I mean, seriously, $800 plus for a Janus kit?  No offense to Janus, but thatís kinda crazy.  Will we ever see a Geo, Screamin or Horizon kit go for that kind of coin.  Nope.  Why, because theyíve been recast to death.  Make no mistake, recasts hurt a lot of people.  Including the collector.

Very true.  But not everyone cares.  Some do, others don't.  The ones that don't care, you can't make them care.  And you can't stop recasts from happening, either.  Not everyone who buys kits cares about the hobby, or whether someone makes more in the future, or any of it. 

Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song, or movie, or fudged on your taxes, or have you had one more beer than you should have before you got in the car and drove, or have you grabbed a few bites off someone's plate at a buffet, or carried a box of candy into a movie, or taken a pen home from work?  It's all relative, but if you've done ANY of those things (or lots of other things that I didn't mention), someone somewhere CARES.  That doesn't mean you care.  It doesn't mean that you SHOULD care. 

I totally understand and agree with what you just said, but you can't stop it from happening.  And I will just about guarantee that of the six kits of yours that have been recast, at least one or two have been recast to spite you, because you pissed someone off.  I'm not saying that makes it right for them to have recast your kit, but if you look at all the trouble that has gone down in the garage kit hobby over the years, think about how it might have been different, if it had been handled differently.  Then think about how to make it different in the future. 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 09, 2012, 06:42:56 PM
   Scatter: That is a great post and very true in my eyes. Which is leading into my next statement. If everyone just obeyed the same rules then I believe there would never be a problem between producers. One rule for all.

   Hammer: I see you mentioned that you have produced over 100 resin kits? Wow, that is a lot. Are they all unlicensed or just a few? How many times would you estimate you have recasted other kits?

   Wonderfest it seems is the main show of the Resin Hobby? And if they allowed recasting how and why would they allow these people to set up there to sell these recasts if they are so against it? How many recasters would you say are present compared to normal dealers? Do you still attend this show and if not is it because the recasting has gotten so bad that you think there is too much hypcoracy?

   How about Model Magazines? I have read about one of the magazines ( I cannot remember which one it was? Sorry getting old.) That they used to produce a model show and they would allow recasters to sell out in the open like a legit dealer? Is this also true?Does this go on at Wonderfest also when you speak of recasting being there?

    As for unlicensed or not unlicensed there are alot of things that would not be around to collect if the only thing people would participate in was only licensed in the Monster Collectibles World? Do you guys feel the same way?
   
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
i would say i havent recasted much at all. and lately not at all. As for the kits I produce some were licensed like my ginger lynn and tura satana and the nestler stuff. some were orignal and some were IP infringement.  does that clear things up for you Scott. err monsterboy?  as for wonderfest I stopped doing it becasue it is getting quite expensive to do once you add in cost of the table , hotel, gas, food at al. plus a 7 hour drive each way. and mostly I lost interest in that show because most of the people I used to hang out with dont bother foing any more. They were people who were instrumental in the hobby but have lost interest in it over the years since it became money driven vs hobby driven. plus in my opinion the show has been highjacked certain folks who seem to think they have a rightiousness that others dont have.  LOL. which is a joke indeed. 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 07:31:44 PM
as for that show you mentioned I assume you mean the REZNHEDZ shows in chicago. Yes indeed some recasts were sold there and by the same person who sold them for years at wonderfest and chiller without any resistance. His mistake was he recasted a kit by a certain magazine owner who raised proper hell about it.  I was even questioned by said owner if I was involved with recasting the kit. I was not, but it didnt matter becasue I was accused of doing that. I find it quite amusing that some of the very peopel who used to buy recasts from this person where the ones who turned on him and got him kicked out of chiller and wonderfest. That is the case. take it as you will.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 07:47:27 PM
what id really like to know after Johns eloquence on the evils of recasting is why did he recast?  and why wont he admit it?? i admit it. i think George is well aware of some of his acqauaintances who either did recasting or has sold recasts.  why is it ok to villify some and not others?? 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 09, 2012, 08:13:04 PM
Hammer: I do not know this history you speak of with a certain recaster or what his name is but I can tell you that my name is not Scott. It is Lou.

You have said that you did do a licensed kit of Ginger Lynn and Tura Santana and one other. So if you did over 100 resin kits then you minus the licensed ones that leaves about 90% of your kits as unlicensed.

I am just trying to understand your point of view when you were speaking with George about the fact that he did  unlicensed kits that were recasted. I can understand his point of view and you might not agree with his statments but why is it different for you if you were doing the same exact thing?

 I am not sure how many kits Geometric has done when Mr. George owned it but for someone that has done over 100 unlicensed kits you seem to have alot more then he was speaking of. How many times have you been recasted?
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 09, 2012, 08:45:50 PM
Just so itís clear, in his statement about hypocrisy, Larry is NOT suggesting that I have ever engaged in recasting.  I never have and never will.  I didn't know at first that you, Hammerfan, were Larry Burbridge.  Not that it matters because my responses to your questions and comments would have been no different.  I have to say, Larry, that you impressed me today by stepping up and admitting that you have engaged in recasting.  There are lots of folks who would not have done so.  You get some props for that.  That must have taken some courage to do that because folks opposed to recasting might very well jump all over you but Iím hoping that doesnít happen.  That doesnít do anyone any good.  Iíd like this discussion to remains respectful and civil.

I really appreciate the intelligent discussion we have had on this issue. Terry didn't think it could be done.  Terry, I have won that bet!   Again, I thank UMA and ALL of the comments here.  I think we have all been given a lot to think about, regardless of where you sit on the issue.  What I think is most important is not about trying to force anyone to change their views.  At least that is not the case for me.  This thread started because RedKing was given a bunch of recasts and, being unfamiliar with how they've impacted GK, thought that those recasts didn't do any harm.  He thought the original kits that had been recasted were produced by big professional companies.  I thought he, and others who might feel that way, might have a different view if they had all of the facts.  To me, getting folks that information is what is important because it allows folks to make up their own minds and to do so intelligently, i.e., having all the facts.  I think it is safe to say that RedKing thinks a bit differently about recasts now that he knows more of the story behind them.  Sounds like that might be true for other commentators in this thread.

I agree with Toy Ranch that some folks aren't going to be persuaded to change their view regardless of which side of the issue they agree with.  That's not the point.  Larry feels I'm being moralistic or talking down at folks but all I've done here is to respond to Redking's initial post and to the questions and comments of other posts.  Larry and I go way back to the days when he was engaging in recasting.  He admitted it to me then and I talked TO HIM (not to a bunch of other folks) about how I felt about it.  Sometime after that, he called and asked GEOmetric to support a show that he was organizing in my hometown of Chicago.  GEO supported the show and had a great time.  My point here is that I will support and defend anybody that I think is doing something positive for the hobby.  If I think you are doing wrong, Iíll tell you that.  But, Iím not one for going public with stuff unless it matters to me and the private approach doesnít work. Regardless of how he feels about me, Larry can vouch for that.

I also agree with Toy Ranch (if I understand his point) that the hostile tone and approach some folks have brought to past UMA discussions of this issue pissed folks off and may have been the motivation for them to recast some of the kits they recasted.  But I am really talking about the larger issue of recasting and the damage it has done to the hobby.  Folks in Hong Kong and Korea and Thailand didnít recast our Alien, Predator,  Cyclops, Pumpkinhead, Medusa, Ripley, King Kong and Star Trek kits (all licensed!) because they were pissed off at GEOmetric.  Diamond Comic Distributors didnít distribute cheap recasts of our vinyl kits kits all over Europe because they were pissed off at us.  The guy in Pennsylvania didnít bootleg our Trek kits because he was pissed off at GEO.   They all did this because they thought it was an easy way to make money off the planning, engineering, sculpting, separating, master molding, and production molding GEO did.  We spent tens of thousands on all that.  The recasters bought one vinyl casting and popped a mold off of it. 

And by the way, the customers of that Pennsylvania recaster werenít buying those resin recasts because they were more affordable than the original kits; his resin recasts were the same price as our vinyl kits and considerably inferior in quality.   His customers had no idea they were recasts.  The GEO logo remained on the recast.
That isnít being moralistic.  Themís the facts.

I will answer any question about what Iíve done and why.  So, how about this?   If you (any of you) are going to engage in recasting, be honest about it; let potential customers know ďIím selling you a recast of ABC Companyís kit.Ē And let them decide if thatís what they want to support.  If you donít care if you get a recast, Iíd like to hear the reasons behind it.  Maybe Iíll learn something.  Nobody here has to explain why they do what they do but Iíd really like to know why folks purchase recasts and why folks recast.  I havenít heard anyone say why they engage in recasting.  I think that would be an interesting part of the other side of this issue.

Larry: I don't know anything about any of my friends recasting kits or selling recasts.  There were folks from whom I purchased kits when I first got into the hobby in the early 80s who were selling recasts.  Like many folks here, I had no idea.  When I found out about them, I avoided them. I honestly don't know about this other history that you are talking about.  I must have missed an awful lot of stuff in the six years after I sold GEOmetric and before I got back into the hobby.  But, I am also not one who pays a lot of attention to board controversies unless someone brings me into it...like this thread about GEO kit recasts.  I'm too busy with three teenagers, my real job, my woman, and my company's kits.

Monsterboy Lou: All of the GEO kits that were recast were licensed.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 09:38:42 PM
Hammer: I do not know this history you speak of with a certain recaster or what his name is but I can tell you that my name is not Scott. It is Lou.

You have said that you did do a licensed kit of Ginger Lynn and Tura Santana and one other. So if you did over 100 resin kits then you minus the licensed ones that leaves about 90% of your kits as unlicensed.

I am just trying to understand your point of view when you were speaking with George about the fact that he did  unlicensed kits that were recasted. I can understand his point of view and you might not agree with his statments but why is it different for you if you were doing the same exact thing?

 I am not sure how many kits Geometric has done when Mr. George owned it but for someone that has done over 100 unlicensed kits you seem to have alot more then he was speaking of. How many times have you been recasted?




ive been recasted several times  not much to do about it except confront the recaster. as far as me getting on george, ive knwon George a long time and he knows where im comign from.    I dont  care if people recast not do i care if they   do uunlicensed kits. But I dotn like people getting a superior attitiude when they have doen one or the other or both.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 09, 2012, 09:45:22 PM
I never said george recasted, so that is clear. I dotn think he would. But there are some foks here who certainly have and seem not willing to admit it. frankly the hobby has changed so much that I dotn have the time to devote to it that i used too. as far as recasting, i havent even had time to put out some original stuff that ive had shelved for several years.  never mind recasting  anything. It seems all therecasts are comign from asia way now.  the hobby started there, makes sense that they might end it too...
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Spock on March 09, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Could i just ask what actually makes a recaster? We all know about how George and Geometric were, unfortunately, hit by the big boys like Sol and Elfin back in the Garage Kit heyday but, as any major manafacturing company will tell you, you are always at risk from cheap Asian knock offs. Just ask the likes of Gucci and Rolex.
What I am more interested in is what actaully makes good ole boy homegrown recaster?
If, lets say, a dealer sells a kit to a customer and when the customer gets the kit it is missing a hand or something, The customer contacts the dealer who has one kit left in but its for his own collection. So rather than offer the customer the hand from his own kit or go through the hassle of contacting the kit producer, the dealer offers to cast up a hand for a replacement. Does this make thus said dealer a recaster?
What if a customer buys a kit and decides he wants extra parts for an elaborate diorama. Again, rather than contact the kit producer and spend a few extra $$$ with the producer he decides to cast his own. Does this make him a recaster?
What if I guy has an old kit that is missing the decals but someone offers to scan and print some decals for him, does this make the guy who offers the decals a recaster?
If someone picks up some resin figures at a flea market or such and lists them on Ebay and finds out they are copies. But he has paid money for them and wants to get his money back. Does this make him a recaster.
I am just interested to what makes a full blown recaster or, if like with so many things, there are vast gray areas depending on who you know.

On another note I have seen the words "healing process" used. Now, Count Fritz has rightly banned recasts from his upcoming Resintopia shows but I also think certain folk have, due to alledged or factual accounts, of recasting been refused tables as well. Now Fritz is perfectly in his rights to do this but shouldn't shows such as this (and Fritz I am in no, way, shape or form trying to tell you how to run a show but just offering a suggestion) and Wonderfest be the place where both sides of the fence can get together and calmly and reasonably put old ghosts to rest. Only then can the healing process truly begin. Until people actually stop with a lot of  hatred, he did that, he's a devil scenario that is so rife on a lot of the hobby bulletin boards and hold out an olive branch I dont think there will ever be a resolution to domestic recasting
As with Asian recasting, that is something you will always have to live with, as will the major clothes, watch and other manafacturing companies.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: monsterphile on March 09, 2012, 10:53:10 PM
I think this discussion overall has been a positive thing.  Aas Bobby said, warring factions may never agree to disagree, but others may come to their own conclusions and make peace with their views. 

Within the hobby, I think there's another conflict, although not necessarily one with animosity.  Someone mentioned about people buying  kits as an investment/collectable).  That person likes that the kit is sold out and their purchase has gone up in value.  Next comes the guy who just wants to make the model.  If the model is out of production and sales of them secondhand are cost prohibitive, he's out of luck when it comes to making one. 

Now we have a guy with one that doesn't use it and another guy who wants one but can't get one.  He with the empty arms might then be tempted to go for a recast.  So, in such a situation, the collector may indirectly hurt the hobby as well.  In a perfect world, the original maker would re-release his kit every few years as demand reached a sufficient level. 

Rob 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: michblk on March 09, 2012, 11:06:21 PM
Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song, or movie, or fudged on your taxes, or have you had one more beer than you should have before you got in the car and drove, or have you grabbed a few bites off someone's plate at a buffet, or carried a box of candy into a movie, or taken a pen home from work?

Are you following me Bobby?   ;D

BK
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Dr. Madd on March 10, 2012, 02:51:01 AM
Not to blast this entire discussion with a scattergun, but I'll say this and say no more on the matter- I Promised our mod that I would not stir this pot and I have no intention to stir this pot.

Why not just merely ignore the whole recast debate altogether and just enjoy the assembled models, without mentioning recasting yay or nay. This whole debate is devisive.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 10, 2012, 09:07:00 AM
Dr. Madd: I appreciate you "not stirring the pot" if that means getting the thread off topic and away from the civil tone folks have used here. Getting the opinion you expressed in your post is just as informative as the other posts.  And I think all this information is a good thing. 

Suppose you collected original classic movie posters.  Wouldn't you want to know that there are folks selling repros of those posters?   I think most folks would want to know so that , if they cared about it, they wouldn't be fooled into spending original poster money on a counterfeit. 

Some folks might not care about that.  They just want to have that piece of art in their collection but they, too, benefit from that info because they wouldn't knowingly pay as much for a counterfeit as they would for an original. 

As has become apparent in this thread and from the PMs I've been getting, a lot of folks are/were completely unaware of recasts or the the impact of recasts or the difference between the quality of an original and the quality of a recast  RedKing and I have communicated outside of this thread and I will be sending him an original GEO Cyclops so he can see the difference.  When I compared an original GEO vinyl kit to its vinyl recast (our Predator, Alien, Pumpkinhead, Cyclops and Medusa), I was surprised how different they are.  RedKing wrote to me and said "I can see the lack of detail in many spots on all of them as well as alot of parts that are terribly mishapen and will need major work if and when i ever decide to actually put them together."  As a modeler, I'd definitely want to know that because I don't enjoy kit building as much as I enjoy kit painting. 

It is obvious from the number of views and comments here that there are lots of folks interested in this subject.  I, for one, really appreciate the moderators having given us the opportunity to present our varying perspectives on the issue, perspectives  that I'm sure a lot of folks were not aware of.  I think the discussion has been informative, certainly has for me, and I'm hoping folks walk away from this thread a bit more informed.  There are still a few things I'd like to know about it.

But I also understand that there are lots of folks completely uninterested in, or tired of, or pissed about the whole recast discussion.  By now everyone knows that this thread is entitled "Box o' Vinyl Recasts".  If they get tired of it, they can easily do exactly what I'll do when I get tired of it...ignore it like I do so many other threads here that don't interest me.

This thing is simply about getting info out there. 

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: scorpio on March 10, 2012, 09:24:35 AM
george, knowlege is king what ever you collect i was caught out  on a repro poster,
its not easy to tell there so good these days, i bet its the same with recasts you by off ebay etc,
until its in hand its hard to tell the difference from the originals its a mine field at times.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 10, 2012, 10:20:56 AM
Well said, Scorpio.  Thanks.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: scorpio on March 10, 2012, 10:28:06 AM
pleasure george,
                                 roy.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Toy Ranch on March 10, 2012, 10:58:08 AM
I think it's good to get information out there. This topic has been so divisive and incendiary that we have simply avoided it. 

We don't get paid for being moderators here, lol.  And our time spent at the UMA, we hope, is fun time, sharing monster stories and stuff, discussing it, etc. We all understand that at times there are going to be moderation issues to address, but when there are, it doesn't mean we have more time for the UMA, it just means that the time we have is spent on dealing with problems, rather than sharing in the hobby we love.  By far and away, the most time spent dealing with problems has been with the problems surrounding this issue.  None of us are even kit builders.  We created this forum because we have many members who are, and wanted to talk about it and share their passion for monsters and building kits of them.  The amount of problems this debate and this single category of monster collecting/fandom has generated has caused me to spend much less time at the UMA.  I'm just soured on the whole thing.  Not monsters, not collecting, but the UMA.  I don't post much, don't share pics of stuff much...  and while it's unfair to blame that all on the Model Kits forum, it certainly is the largest single contributor to that.  Just not reading it isn't an option I have.  Well, it could be, if I resigned as an admin of this site, and I've given that some serious thought.

We are not going to ban anyone just because someone else doesn't like them, or want them to be a part of the UMA.  If we started doing that, I would resign, because this would not be a community that I wanted to be a part of anymore.  We will always ban people who are ripping off other UMA members, and that includes recasting.  But as George said earlier, we do not police the internet.  We don't know who is doing what, and have proof of it off this site. Going back to the time we spend here, spending time policing the internet is NOT what we are EVER going to do with our time. Recently there was a membership exodus here, because either we didn't react swiftly enough to a post George made about a member possibly recasting his model, or because we didn't react in the way some thought we should have.  I was pissed off and insulted by that.  I was working, I had family commitments, and when I got to the UMA to look at it, there were allegations of some possible recasting made by a 3rd party.  The specifics were unknown to us.  We offered the member who was called out an opportunity to respond, and because we offered that opportunity to respond instead of taking action based on allegations that were not only unproven to us, but not even were proven to George, we were subject to yet another disruptive model kit drama.  We don't get this from Vintage Toys, or Modern Toys, or Masks and Busts, or Memorabilia, or General Discussion, or Sports, or Music, or Technology, or ANY other aspect of the classic monster hobby and offshoot discussions.  I'd love to see you guys figure out how to get along, and stop driving us nuts.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 10, 2012, 11:14:12 AM
Recently there was a membership exodus here, because either we didn't react swiftly enough to a post George made about a member possibly recasting his model, or because we didn't react in the way some thought we should have.  I was pissed off and insulted by that.  I was working, I had family commitments, and when I got to the UMA to look at it, there were allegations of some possible recasting made by a 3rd party.  The specifics were unknown to us.  We offered the member who was called out an opportunity to respond, and because we offered that opportunity to respond instead of taking action based on allegations that were not only unproven to us, but not even were proven to George, we were subject to yet another disruptive model kit drama.  We don't get this from Vintage Toys, or Modern Toys, or Masks and Busts, or Memorabilia, or General Discussion, or Sports, or Music, or Technology, or ANY other aspect of the classic monster hobby and offshoot discussions.  I'd love to see you guys figure out how to get along, and stop driving us nuts.

Toy Ranch: Until this thread, I have NEVER posted anything on UMA accusing someone of recasting my kits.  Maybe I am having a senior moment here but that is simply not true.  I have no idea what you are talking about.  And before this goes any further, please point me to that accusation.  I don't work that way.  I take it right to the source.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 10, 2012, 11:25:38 AM
I have asked the moderators here to respond to the posting by moderator Toy Ranch in which he says my complaint to UMA about someone recasting my kit was responsible for some recent controversy and mass exodus from this forum.  That is simply untrue.  I have never made such a complaint and have no idea what he is talking about.  This thread is the first time I have ever commented on UMA about recasting of my kits. 

I'd like to see this handled immediately so the responsible and respectful discussion here can continue.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: raycastile on March 10, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
I think Bobby has you mixed up with Ray Santoleri.  Like he said, none of us mods are GK builders.  We don't know the community well, or who the players are. 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 10, 2012, 11:38:25 AM
I think Bobby has you mixed up with Ray Santoleri.  Like he said, none of us mods are GK builders.  We don't know the community well, or who the players are.

I think that's what must be going on here. I have no other idea what Bobby could be talking about? The last model kit exodus from this site was a couple months ago. And those were primarily resin kamikazes bombing the forum as martyrs.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 10, 2012, 12:08:45 PM
 In response to Hammerfan statements: I have never met a recaster nor have I ever had the chance to ask certain questions to a recaster ( or someone who has recasted). So my questions are.....

1) You have admitted that you have recasted in the past. My curiosity is WHY? Is it a kit that was so rare you couldn't get it anymore like the way some people would cast old Aurora styrene kits in resin?

2) Or was it you were trying to cash in on a kit that was selling well at the time?

3) Or was it that you just didn't like the person who owned the original kit production?

I am asking these things because I look at it this way, if someone is making unlicensed kits in the same arena as everyone else,then why take someone else's kits to re-produce? Why not just make your own stuff? Is there a shortage of sculptors available to get these projects off the ground? I was never under that impression,and I am sure if you can think of an idea you can make a resin kit.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 10, 2012, 12:40:02 PM
Bobby is not able to respond at the moment, but just for the record, he did just tell me that he had mistakingly confused George with an earlier incident. He will respond at a later time when he's able to. I just didn't want any unnecessary fly to enter into the ointment and inadvertently raise the barometer.

It's easy to get folks mixed up in this circle. Especially with so many previous cases we've had here at UMA.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Toy Ranch on March 10, 2012, 01:34:09 PM
Yes, exactly what Terry said.  Sorry George, didn't mean to mistake you for Ray, and Ray, sorry that I mistook George for you.  This is Ray's thread.  We didn't have any problem with what Ray said, at all.

http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=16745.0 (http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=16745.0)
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: RICKH on March 10, 2012, 02:17:13 PM
It has been interesting and enlightening to read the posts in this thread.  I appreciate Terry for allowing this thread to be reopened to discuss a very controversial topic.  I also appreciate George's very articulate and reasoned postings about a subject that has affected him both personally and financially.  Also, let me take this opportunity to say "thank you" to the moderators who make this a decent and friendly place for those of us who love our monsters.  Their vigilance and effort often go unappreciated.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 10, 2012, 10:44:13 PM
I appreciate the quick clarification,  Toy Ranch.  Same to you Terry and Ray Castile.  Much appreciated. I knew about a controversy here weeks or months ago and I knew it had something to do with a discussion of the recast issue but I don't get involved in that stuff and didn't know details.  Otherwise, I probably would have known right away that you had confused me for Ray Santoleri. 

No harm no foul, man. 

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Count_Zirock on March 11, 2012, 12:55:33 AM
For the most part, I'm a styrene kit builder. The few vinyl and resin kits in my collection are all licensed and originals. The 'Lissa Monroe, Scampirella and Boobira kits I have were bought direct from Jim Fawkes. My limited, resin Cthulhu came from John Dennett (and I still have an unbuilt, vinyl GEOmetric version, too). I became friends with Dan at Screamin' after hanging with him at a few Chiller Theatres, and ordered all of my kits directly from them.
I COULD have bought recasts. I could have MADE recasts of some of the old, unbuilt styrene kits I had/have in my collection. I didn't. I was offered damn good money for my unbuilt Aurora Monster Scenes Vampirella by recasters, but turned it down. (Okay, that was mainly because I had every intention of BUILDING AND PAINTING the thing... and I still do!) By being friends with Jim, John, and Dan, I knew recasting hurt the hobby in general and them in particular. So, despite offers (some of them very persistant), I never engaged in it or supported it. That was just me and how I am. I make no presumption of moral superiority over those who chose to do otherwise.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 08:36:26 AM
It is good that some people are expressing thier opinions on the subject whether yay or nay. UMA is liikely the best forum out there as far as having reasonable and intelligent mods and admin folks, compared to some of the model sites who are very agenda driven and offer platforms to those who are allowed in and publcally attack and ridicule people they dont agree with. While the hobby is still alive. I think it is just still alive. Most of the fans of garage kits and models in general are baby boomers and older. Kids today dont seem to take an interest, with rare exception. So you have a limited hobby which is already dluted and now you add prepaints, die casts, and well doen actions figures to the mix. no wonder the hobby is suffering.  Now recasting has hurt the hobby to some degree, more so the vinyl market which was heavily redone in asia. but there are a great many other factors affecting the hobby.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 08:43:05 AM
BTW i was accused on recasting some kits out of retaliation. that is not true. I was aware that the kits were recast, but so was the owner of those kits. If that person had not isolated themself and become so adversarial perhaps I could have told them. But that was not the case.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 10:34:37 AM
In another thread, larry asked that I check page 6 of this thread and answer questions that he asked but to which he had not yet gotten an answer.  I could be wrong but I think this is the question.  I think I've answered all others directed to me. If I'm missing something. please let me know.

i think George is well aware of some of his acqauaintances who either did recasting or has sold recasts.  why is it ok to villify some and not others??

Larry,  I guess I thought it was a rhetorical question because I’ve never vilified anyone on any forum.  I don’t join campaigns to rouse the villagers and to torch storm the castle.  I’d rather be painting a model.  I'm pretty sure I answered all of your other questions on page 6 of this thread the best I could and I said " I will answer any question about what I’ve done and why....Nobody here has to explain why they do what they do but I’d really like to know why folks purchase recasts and why folks recast.  I haven’t heard anyone say why they engage in recasting.  I think that would be an interesting part of the other side of this issue.

I went on to address your suggestion that I am aware that some of my acquaintances did recasting or sold recasts. I said:

Larry: I don't know anything about any of my friends recasting kits or selling recasts.  There were folks from whom I purchased kits when I first got into the hobby in the early 80s who were selling recasts.  Like many folks here, I had no idea.  When I found out about them, I avoided them. I honestly don't know about this other history that you are talking about.  I must have missed an awful lot of stuff in the six years after I sold GEOmetric and before I got back into the hobby.  But, I am also not one who pays a lot of attention to board controversies unless someone brings me into it...like this thread about GEO kit recasts.” 

I have been pissed about folks recasting my companies’ kits and I’ve done the best I could to deal with those recasters directly without jumping on the forums for support from others.  And with the experiences I’ve had with recasters, I sure as hell wouldn’t associate with folks who do that.
 
No friend of mine is doing that!   Folks can make up their own minds about who they associate with and I’m not suggesting that anyone do or think as I do.

Again, I don’t go on the boards and participate in the flameouts and name-calling and all that stuff.  I don’t pay that much attention to the hobby forums except to get feedback about my kits, to get information out there about my kits, and, generally, to see what other folks are producing so I can avoid doing what some other producer has already done.
 
Larry, if you have asked some other question that I have not answered, let me know.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 10:48:52 AM
actually I think Spock asked you reply to his post, but im glad you replied to mine. Im not saying that you villify anyone, but there sure are those out there who do. Perhps you dont knwo that some peopel you assoiciate with have doen recasting and bought recasts. I could list them here, and I know either thru direct knowledge or having them approach me to buy a recast. In fact one very well known model maker approached me about recasting one of the Janus kits, because they thought they would sell well as he originals go for hight prices.  I declined mostly because I knwo John U and would do that to him.  one of the major styrene kit kit makers out there now used to bring in knock offs of the 1:1 scale Kaiyodo gremlin and  hotizon creature and frankenstein recasts from Korea. I knw this because he offered them to me. soem of his confederates were welling them at Chiller. this i know becasue i was in the table behind them, LOL. I asked them why they were selling recasts and they said How do you knwo they are recasts?  well the fact that they were bagged and not boxed, and the fact that they had cases of them, which doesnt seem likely for two rare kits. shall I name names??  to what end?  ill be asked to prove soemthing that happened 10 -12 years ago. plus frankly even if I had a smoking gun, the majority of the mouth breathers out there who think these guys are beyond such things would never believe it.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 11, 2012, 11:02:36 AM
   HI, me again.  ;)

Hammer before you go on listing any names, do you think you can answer the 3 questions I had listed in my latest post. I am just trying real hard to understand the motives and rewards for this whole reason to "RECAST" out of production kits,and to recast another producers kits that is still in production?

Thank you
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 11:16:33 AM
Larry: Thanks for clearing up my mistake about Spock's question.  I will get back to Spock's questions but give me a little time.  My kids and I are doing stuff today.  Hope to respond tomorrow sometime. 

Anyone doing what you described, Larry, would not have let me see that because if they knew me, they would have known that I'd have gone right to my friends at Horizon and told them about it...which I did on a number of occasions when I came across those recasts.  Those who shared my attitude about that got branded "resin police".  Friends of mine were like-minded and would not have done that unless they did so while hiding it from me.  At the shows, I was at my table most of the time.  I'd walk around, when I could, to check out other folks' stuff and to visit with folks.  I tried to acquaint myself with as many folks as possible because I was looking to sell GEO kits.  But, I'd be very surprised to learn that folks I hung with, folks who were friends of mine, did that.


Spock: Give me some time to get to your questions.  I WILL get to them.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 11:34:22 AM
one of the main reasons I did out of production kits (which were all foriegn BTW) was that people requested them from me. They knew i had some rare OOP stuff from japan because i used to be stationed there. as for in production kits, do my knowlege i dotn recall even doing that. and I didnt say i would  name names, I did say I could be that it would be a waste of time. as was posted earlier by Toy Ranch you arent going to sway peoples beliefs. they already believe what they believe.  frankly I dont care what people do, I have my own business and I try to mind it.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 11:37:19 AM
BTW montsterboy  you like to ask questions but dont seem willing to offer much but playing  devils advocate. do you have a dog in this fight??
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 11, 2012, 12:34:36 PM
Have you ever had an illegally downloaded song....

No. I'm an audiophile. I'm opposed to not only illegal downloads, I'm opposed to any and all lossy downloads. I think that whoever invented the concept of downloading music onto computers should be given a sound beating and then jailed as a first warning.

 >:(
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 12:51:32 PM
Could i just ask what actually makes a recaster? We all know about how George and Geometric were, unfortunately, hit by the big boys like Sol and Elfin back in the Garage Kit heyday but, as any major manafacturing company will tell you, you are always at risk from cheap Asian knock offs. Just ask the likes of Gucci and Rolex.
What I am more interested in is what actaully makes good ole boy homegrown recaster?
If, lets say, a dealer sells a kit to a customer and when the customer gets the kit it is missing a hand or something, The customer contacts the dealer who has one kit left in but its for his own collection. So rather than offer the customer the hand from his own kit or go through the hassle of contacting the kit producer, the dealer offers to cast up a hand for a replacement. Does this make thus said dealer a recaster?
What if a customer buys a kit and decides he wants extra parts for an elaborate diorama. Again, rather than contact the kit producer and spend a few extra $$$ with the producer he decides to cast his own. Does this make him a recaster?
What if I guy has an old kit that is missing the decals but someone offers to scan and print some decals for him, does this make the guy who offers the decals a recaster?
If someone picks up some resin figures at a flea market or such and lists them on Ebay and finds out they are copies. But he has paid money for them and wants to get his money back. Does this make him a recaster.
I am just interested to what makes a full blown recaster or, if like with so many things, there are vast gray areas depending on who you know.

On another note I have seen the words "healing process" used. Now, Count Fritz has rightly banned recasts from his upcoming Resintopia shows but I also think certain folk have, due to alledged or factual accounts, of recasting been refused tables as well. Now Fritz is perfectly in his rights to do this but shouldn't shows such as this (and Fritz I am in no, way, shape or form trying to tell you how to run a show but just offering a suggestion) and Wonderfest be the place where both sides of the fence can get together and calmly and reasonably put old ghosts to rest. Only then can the healing process truly begin. Until people actually stop with a lot of  hatred, he did that, he's a devil scenario that is so rife on a lot of the hobby bulletin boards and hold out an olive branch I dont think there will ever be a resolution to domestic recasting
As with Asian recasting, that is something you will always have to live with, as will the major clothes, watch and other manafacturing companies.

Spock: Lots of good questions.  Some are tough questions and I think reasonable people might disagree on the answers.  I think there are some cases that are pretty clear.

So, here is my opinion:  If you buy my kit, pop a mold off it and sell copies to other folks, Iíd certainly have a problem with that.  Youíd feel the same way if I did that to your kit, right?

If you buy my kit, pop a mold off it and give copies to other folks, Iím not happy about that.  Youíd feel the same way, right?  But, frankly, if you had come to me and said, ďmy three buddies and I want this kit.  Can you give me a deal if I buy  four of them?Ē  Iíd say hell yeah.  I do that all the time.  I have customers that do just that on every kit we release because they paint for clients who want my stuff.  So, I give them a nice discount and make four sales.  Everybody is happy.

If you are thinking about buying my kit, popping a mold off it and making copies for yourself for a diorama or just because you want to have two or three copies for yourself, Iíd say ask me about giving you a deal for buying three or four kits.  Youíd be better off taking the money you would otherwise spend on molding and casting materials and, instead, using it to buy the two or three copies you need for your diorama.  Not to mention the fact that youíll save the time it will take to make the molds and castings. Plus, my castings are going to be better than yours.  :) Everybody is happy.

I donít sell decals and donít know how those folks would respond.  I have no idea how much decals might cost a collector but Iíd prefer to support the little guy who is making those decals.  I think the way to answer all of your questions is to put yourself in the position of the person whose product is being copied.  How would you feel?   What would you like folks to do in that situation?

The Ebay situation? I used to collect racist artifacts and African carvings, some cheap and some expensive.  I was careful about determining whether the item was authentic because there are a lot of fakes and repros of this stuff.  When I got duped into buying a couple of fakes, I contacted the seller and got my money back.  Early on in my collecting, there were a couple of times I wasnít so vigilant, made the purchase (at an antiques store), and then learned it was a fake. I was bummed and pissed.  That is my fault.  I would not turn around and sell it.  But, thatís just how I see it.  Other folks might feel differently.  If I didnít do my homework before buying an item, lesson learned. 
 
Most important in answering your questions: how would you feel, Spock, if someone was doing this with your products? Folks have to decide these things for themselves.  There isnít going to be some code of conduct that everyone adheres to under threat of banishment.

Your last point about healing is difficult because this is clearly so emotional an issue for lots of folks.  The emotion around it has spilled over to make the UMA mods crazy.   I mean some of the mods, even in this thread, have referred to some folks here with the unflattering moniker, ďresin kamikazesĒ.  Iím not a resin kamikaze, a ďresin naziĒ or ďthe resin policeĒ.  But I understand the mods comments about the discourse in a previous recasting thread being neither productive nor respectful.   Maybe healing starts with having some respectful communicaton about issues and between folks who have been at odds about issues.  Maybe RedKing has started that here.
 
I donít have any other answers for you about healing.  Thatís up to the folks who have all the hostility toward each other.  Iím not involved in all that.

So, if I can suggest something by way of my experience as a judge dealing with opposing parties because that is what I do for a living, get folks to reach an agreement so we don't have to go to trial.  In most cases I handle, folks want to get out of crisis and they say, ďJudge, tell me what I have to do to get out of this mess.Ē  If you committed a crime, you have to 'fess up, do your time or do probation and then you are done with it.  If you violated some civil law, you pay the money or stop doing what you have been doing and you are done with it.  In child protection cases, you do these programs the social workers tell you to do and you are done with it.
 
But in family/divorce cases, many of the folks are so angry that they donít want to be out of the mess.  They are so angry and emotional that what they most want is to hurt or anger or otherwise mess with the other party.  Theyíll pay thousands of dollars that they canít afford, and spend a whole bunch of time thinking about how to take a shot at the other party.  I take the time to point that out to them and sometimes, they get it and then move on.  Sometimes, they are just too wrapped up in it and they and their kids lose.

Sounds like some of that might be going on here.  For me, life is too short to be all pissed off about stuff going on in a hobby that is all about fun.  That stuff doesnít interest me.  I'd rather be painting a kit.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: lblambert on March 11, 2012, 01:47:01 PM
But in family/divorce cases, many of the folks are so angry that they donít want to be out of the mess.  They are so angry and emotional that what they most want is to hurt or anger or otherwise mess with the other party.  Theyíll pay thousands of dollars that they canít afford, and spend a whole bunch of time thinking about how to take a shot at the other party.  I take the time to point that out to them and sometimes, they get it and then move on.  Sometimes, they are just too wrapped up in it and they and their kids lose.

Sounds like some of that might be going on here.  For me, life is too short to be all pissed off about stuff going on in a hobby that is all about fun.  That stuff doesnít interest me.  I'd rather be painting a kit.

I've been following this thread but haven't chipped in, but I have to pipe in here and say I think you hit the nail on the head George. This recasting debate has always struck me as an ugly divorce case...emotionally driven with both sides wanting only to punish the other with no consideration to any other damage being caused (by the way, this is why I no longer practice family law). People will gladly spend $2000 to fight over a $100 vacuum cleaner just to make sure their ex doesn't get it. The same goes for the recasting issue...people get so emotionally invested in their own agendas they lose sight as to the effect that their squabble has on the hobby overall. This type of divisive issue is no good for the hobby and, at the end of the day, nobody wins. Unfortunately I don't see the time coming anytime soon where those most involved in perpetuating this dischord will even try to see the perspective of anyone who feels different than them, let alone engage in any type of dialogue to mend the hobby.     
 
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 03:14:42 PM
Thanks, lblambert.  If other folks agree with that, maybe we need to acknowledge that there isn't much more to say that will be productive.  Although, 'd still like to hear from folks about why they engaged in recasting and I'd like to know why folks have knowlngly purchased them.   And I'm hoping to hear from Spock about my responses to his questions about recasting.

I do think some good has come of this.  if nothing else, we have informed some folks about the issue.  But we have also had one person step up and admit to recasting.  We had folks talk about what they think of recasting.  We had folks ask questions to get more information.  We had folks talk about how they were impacted by recasting.  I think the discussion has been respectful and it would be disappointing for it to devolve into name-calling, finger-pointing and other personal stuff that is irrelevant to the discussion.

I think it is pretty clear that when you separate the issue of unlicensed products from the issue of recasts, folks have to agree that these are two distinct issues. Their posts clearly indicate in this thread and in the companion thread that the issue of unlicensed kits is separate from the issue of recasting.  We have all learned something here. 

No less important is the fact that this discussion has, for the most part, been conducted with respect.  I'd like to see the discussion end before it sinks to what the mods thought it might.

My goal was to respond to RedKing's initial post and for folks to understand more clearly the damage recasting has done to the hobby, generally, and to one GK company specifically.  I promised the mods I'd hang in here and respond to posts but I do have a life (unlike the mods who get paid a ton of money and have nothing else to do in life but monitor posts here)  ;).  I appreciate how folks have responded here.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: lblambert on March 11, 2012, 04:31:18 PM
I'd like to know why folks have knowlngly purchased them. 

I'll answer this as I have knowingly purchased one.  I have never built a vinyl kit and spent over $200 on a real Billiken Frankenstein. I wanted to practice cutting vinyl and also try different paint schemes. Rather than risk screwing up and making a mistake with my real Billiken, I picked up a $15 vinyl recast from Thailand. I won't be building it or selling it...just using it to try a few things for the first time then chucking it.   
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 11, 2012, 04:46:01 PM
BTW montsterboy  you like to ask questions but dont seem willing to offer much but playing  devils advocate. do you have a dog in this fight??

Curious indeed. Monsterboy registered in August 2009 and up until last week had a whopping total of nine posts. His interest in this forum therefore appeared to be casual at best.

Since the recasting issue was raised, however, he quickly has nine more posts. Somehow he just doesn't appear to be an arm's length observer on the subject.

 :o
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 06:18:46 PM
lblambert, thanks for that response about the recast you bought.  And, Larry, thanks for your response, too, about why you recasted kits.  I have to say, again, you deserve some props for that admission.  While I don't follow the forums that closely, especially when insults and allegations start flying, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone actually admit, on line or in a forum, to recasting.  I'm hoping to hear from others here who have engaged in recasting and who have knowingly purchased recasts.  I'd love to know why and whether any of this discussion has changed how they view the issue.

Fellas,  I'd appreciate it if you would keep your posts in this thread on the subject of recasting.  And Hepcat, Moderator Terry in the companion thread to this one admonished Monsterboy and Larry for asking about names.  Your last comment seems to be pushing this thread toward the tone folks here have complained about.  It's been a positive and informative discussion so far.  Hoping you three will respect that and keep it that way.  Thanks, guys.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
Curious indeed. Monsterboy registered in August 2009 and since that time has had a whopping total of nine posts. His interest in this forum would therefore appear to be casual at best.

Since the recasting issue was raised, however, he quickly has nine more posts. Somehow he just doesn't appear to be an arm's length observer on the subject.

 :o

you do make an interesting point Hepcat. But troll behaviour is very easily spotted.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 11, 2012, 07:24:09 PM
Hep: in response to your statement. I have been a member since 2009. I have visited sometimes when I had time to burn and lots of time when I never had time to participate. I would not even sign in just come on look at the topics and sign off. Mainly because of work and school.

Now I never came into the scene the last time I had read about this big recasting issue flare up on the UMA. So now because I am friend's with a few sculptors who do complain about the same things that are being mentioned now is the reason why I am interested in this conversation.

I have one friend who is a professional sculptor, who name is Eden Small. He works for WETA film company in New Zealand. Before he started working professionally at WETA, he sent a couple copies of one of his newest sculpts to the Garagekit Magazines here in the US. And he was so upset when he and I spoke,because he told me that he sent the copies in pure honest trust. Until he found out that one of the magazines that received his kit, the magazine owner took the kit and made molds of it.

I asked Eden how did you know that it was recasted? He then showed me the EBAY Auctions listing his kit being sold be this magazine. He was so upset he told me that he would never offer another piece of his art to collectors ever again. How low can you be he told me, and I have to agree.

So when I see a story like this with someone admitting that they have done recasting in the past and have done unlicensed kits. I am interested in knowing the motives. The reasons why? Why steal from another producer? How would you as a producer feel if the shoe was on the other foot and my friend Eden took one of your kits and started recasting it and selling it in his country? This is what I am interested in. I have heard his side now I want to hear other people's statements about why they do it?

 I am not sure how severe this behavior is in the resin hobby. But for it to attract this much attention and comments, it must be serious. This is me looking from the outside in of course. I only know a few sculptors and I know of kits that I have purchased through my subscriptions to Amazing Figure Modeler. Not only do I collect some kits but also,soundtracks,movie posters,and all Universal Monster related merchandise.

Hammer: If my questions upset you and Hep,that was not my intention. I was just asking because again I did not have the chance last time this thread was locked. I didn't mean to get you upset. But after you mentioned that you had Recasted in the past, I thought it was a good time to exchange moxie with someone in an open and friendly conversation. I will just take your silence as a message that you do not want to answer. I understand and I will not ask anymore questions.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: MonsterBoy7 on March 11, 2012, 07:31:46 PM
you do make an interesting point Hepcat. But troll behaviour is very easily spotted.

Now I am a Troll because I do not have the free time you and Hep have to particapate on a forum? I am not all over the forum, this is true. I didn't know that only people with more posts then me could participate in a conversation?

I think I do not need you to answer anymore questions,as your actions are starting to show me the reasons why you admitted to recasting.

I guess if you do not like what someone is saying to you then it's time to put the blame on someone else? Draw the spotlight away from you and put it in another part of the room.

To me that is the actions of a coward. Admins and Mods you do not have to lock this. I will not ask anymore honest questions.

Thanks for re-opening this thread I got to learn a little more about the other side of people in the hobby.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 11, 2012, 09:21:35 PM
Now I am a Troll because I do not have the free time you and Hep have to particapate on a forum? I am not all over the forum, this is true. I didn't know that only people with more posts then me could participate in a conversation?

I think I do not need you to answer anymore questions,as your actions are starting to show me the reasons why you admitted to recasting.

I guess if you do not like what someone is saying to you then it's time to put the blame on someone else? Draw the spotlight away from you and put it in another part of the room.

To me that is the actions of a coward. Admins and Mods you do not have to lock this. I will not ask anymore honest questions.

Thanks for re-opening this thread I got to learn a little more about the other side of people in the hobby.
Thank you.


You're not a troll....there are some people trying to play guessing games. It happens on other sites too. I had folks speculating about my identity before John told them who I was. Bottom line: it's a topic BUYERS can be passionate about. Because someone like either you or I am---they suspect we are "one of the boys" in the production of the kits. I have no dog in this fight.  I am not a model producer, but I do like to have the option of buying the models~~and that causes me to have an opinion. I assume thats why you have one too. I followed Mike Hill's resin kits religiously. Then he went on to private commission only, and to high finance clients. The last models I got he did were the FZ busts. The last affordable thing he did that i got was the Sideshow Wolfman Premium format figure. he didnt like having his work re-cast....so he went to  greener pastures. Because of re-casting.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 11, 2012, 10:07:58 PM
Phibes: Thanks for that comment.

I'm still hoping others will chime in about why they engage in recasting or why they buy recasts.   So far only one person here has admitted engaging in recasting.  I wish other recasters here had stepped up to admit having engaged in recasting because I'd love to know if their customers knowingly buy recasts.   I'd like to know if most of those buyers are unaware or they really don't care.  As a kit producer, I think that would be good for me to know.   

Larry: Please don't  feel like I'm picking on you especially since you are the only person here who has been man enough to stand up and admit that he engaged in recasting; like I said, you get serious props for that, man.   But I'd love to know if your customers know when the kit they buy from you is a recast.

BTW, the quote was "He who angers you conquers you." Don't know who first said that but it is one of my favorites, too.  ;)  It is a reminder to exercise civility and restraint.  My older sister told me that many years ago and I try to practice that when things get heated.   It is relate to another of my favorite sayings, this one by JFK: "Civility is not a sign of weakness."

With those things in mind, I ask Monsterboy, Hepcat, and other commentators here, to exercise civility and restraint so that this positive discourse will continue.  Thanks, folks.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: hammerfan on March 11, 2012, 10:11:13 PM
that would be nice George. i tend to think it will disintegrate into the usual mess. but time will tell.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Hepcat on March 12, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
If my questions upset you and Hep,that was not my intention.... I will not ask anymore questions.

It's not your questions I find annoying. It's your lack of participation otherwise when there are hundreds of threads on this board for Universal monster fans. I'm eagerly awaiting your input.

 u6juu
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: fmofmpls on March 12, 2012, 08:59:01 AM
We never can truly know the reasons for posting (or lack thereof) not to mention the true identity of any member here at the forum. We can only guess in our own best estimation. Anything else is nothing more than conjecture. I would respectfully ask that constraint is used in making public assumptions about other members;  with, or even without all the facts.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: michblk on March 12, 2012, 11:27:11 AM
My reasons for buying a recast would be I either didn't know it was a recast.  I would consider buying a recast if the producer is no longer in business or the kit is no longer produced.

BK
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: george on March 12, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
Hepcat: PM sent.

GeoS
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: long live kong on March 12, 2012, 03:31:09 PM
I wouldn't buy a recast, but I have owned two, they were a gift from my mother a couple of Christmas's' back. She got a Geometric Medusa and a Cyclops (which I'm pretty sure was also by Geometric?) from ebay and I could tell she was really pleased with what she'd bought me, so I felt too guilty binning them or hiding them away so I built and painted them. I had to sculpt one of the cyclops' arms from scratch and a large chunk of his torso, the seams on the Medusa were half an inch wide so they also required tons of filling and sculpting. I showed my mum the finished kits and later gave them to a friend who was over the moon with them.

BTW George - a big thankyou from me for giving us Geometric! I own several kits (all original) and they have pride of place in my modest collection - two of my favourites are the 'swimming' Gillman kit and the Mike Hill Wolfman!
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: RedKing on March 12, 2012, 11:21:58 PM
I had to sculpt one of the cyclops' arms from scratch and a large chunk of his torso, the seams on the Medusa were half an inch wide so they also required tons of filling and sculpting.

This is another point about recasts I would like to adress. I know alot of people justify buying them to themselves because there is no way they can afford the original, so a cheaper knock-off will do. Well, again, the only person who benefits from recasters are the recasters themselves because , at least with the kits I received, there is alot of work thta needs to be done to get them into presentable or usable shape. For me, i enjoy painting the kit, not building it, so ny additional work i hve to do to get a kit together is irksome for me. here is an example: this pic is of the large Kong recast i have. i have trimmed the parts so you can see better. This is the top and bottom halves that should fit together but as you can see, the top is flattened so bad there is no way it will fit. It will require alot of heating and reshaping.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/RedKing71/DSCF0309.jpg)
That's not all either. Every single piece of this kit needs to be heated and reshaped to fit together! Just terrible quality but the recasters do not care, they just want to pump out kits as cheaply and quickly as possible.
like LongLive Kong, I will try and build these kits because they were a thoughtful gift from a very close friend, and they will also serve to remind me of everything that I have learned during this discussion. needless to say, I will never consider buying a recast ever. it is just not worth it considering the damage to the hobby these guys have done and the insane amount of extra work that needs to be put into the kits to make them even half way usable.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: Anton Phibes on March 12, 2012, 11:42:29 PM
That abysmal re-cast was originally a Dark Horse kit by Bowen (if I am viewing the warped monstrosity correctly). it put me in memory of a mistake my dad made once. My dad came over to my place and saw my Horizon Creature kit (which I sold off awhile back). He said he wanted to get one. But mine wasn't for sale at the time. He bought one that was painted and assembled from ebay and brought it to the house to show me his new "score" once it arrived. When he did---the first words out of my mouth were "you got ripped". He flipped out when I stood my Horizon Creature next to the RECAST he unknowingly purchased. It was smaller, and much of the detail was gone. This particular re-cast also sported a re-cast of Headless Fritz's custom nameplate....and a rubber Halloween snake.

My dad was ticked. I told him it takes money to go to college...so he learned his lesson. Now, when my pops wants a monster item, he doesnt buy anything before consulting me. So He doesnt get ripped again.
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: monsterphile on March 13, 2012, 05:13:27 AM
I wouldn't buy a recast, but I have owned two, they were a gift from my mother a couple of Christmas's' back. She got a Geometric Medusa and a Cyclops (which I'm pretty sure was also by Geometric?) from ebay and I could tell she was really pleased with what she'd bought me, so I felt too guilty binning them or hiding them away so I built and painted them.

There's an idea for a whole other thread.  Monster gifts we've gotten from people who meant well...   lol


Rob
Title: Re: Box o' Vinyl Recasts
Post by: westbatman on March 14, 2012, 09:25:00 AM
George,

Thanks so much for your posts. They have cleared up a mess of information on recasting, licensed and unlicensed kits. I am sending you a pm and was wondering if you could give me your thoughts.

Andy