Universal Monster Army

Collecting Monsters => Vintage Monster Toys => Topic started by: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 02:08:05 PM

Title: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 02:08:05 PM
Ahi gets the nod for nailing the Universal likeness(i guess it helps to have the license)
Mego gets it for overall coolness of the figure ,especially with the variations and trailing close behind both is the remco monsters
  Whats your thoughts??
    Vinny
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Dr.Terror on December 31, 2007, 02:10:21 PM
For me it's

Remco

AHI

Lincoln

and all the way down at the bottom are Megos.  If I could think of others to put above them I would.  Frank is Cool, Drac is OK, but the other 2 just never tickled my fancy.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on December 31, 2007, 02:12:12 PM
HEY VIN!  Good to see ya posting here.  I can admire the creative, copyright-dodging approach of the Mego monsters, but I admire the Lincoln monsters in that respect even more.  Hands-down the winner of AHI vs Mego is...AHI, of course!
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 02:17:17 PM
Wow  i totally forgot the Lincolns!!!   i would put them ahead of Mego also
  Vinny
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: MegoGeek on December 31, 2007, 02:26:57 PM
Hey Vin-Man!

Good to see you over here!

I hate Megos! ;D

As far as AHI goes you really have to give credit to Aurora since AHI basically swiped the sculpts from the kits.

While the AHI were a much better likeness, the Mego packaging was far superior.

It's tough to compare licensed to non licensed but the Mego art by Grey Morrow pushes them over the top in this battle.

And the winner is....MEGO! ......I know, coming from me that's shocking.



Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 03:06:25 PM
Thanks
  Its good to be here
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: raycastile on December 31, 2007, 04:37:40 PM
AHI is the king of 70s monster toys.  And now we have to throw Tomland in the mix, since they made a Frank, Drac, Wolfman and Mummy.

I rank them:
AHI
Lincoln
Tomland
Remco
Mego

Sorry Mego!
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 05:13:18 PM
I've always ranked them

Lincoln
Mego
Remco
AHI (Can't get over the bodies)


I love them all really and the only reason the Lincolns win is that I had one or two as a child.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Toy Ranch on December 31, 2007, 05:23:24 PM
Quote from: raycastile on December 31, 2007, 04:37:40 PM
AHI is the king of 70s monster toys.  And now we have to throw Tomland in the mix, since they made a Frank, Drac, Wolfman and Mummy.

I rank them:
AHI
Lincoln
Tomland
Remco
Mego

Sorry Mego!

I agree with this.  I love Mego figures, but their monsters...  blechhh.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: The Toyroom on December 31, 2007, 05:29:33 PM
Although I can't believe I'm saying this (since I've only ever owned the Mego Mad Monsters)....I gotta give it to the AHI monsters, probably followed by Lincoln and Remco. The Mego Monsters are more "super-heroes" to me than actual monsters...more good guys in the vein of The Monster Squad instead of the scary Universal group of yore.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 05:38:01 PM
Quote from: Toy Ranch on December 31, 2007, 05:23:24 PM
I agree with this.  I love Mego figures, but their monsters...  blechhh.

I can see why you think that, especially if you're a purist. I just personally view them as wonderfully stylized pieces geared towards children.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Toy Ranch on December 31, 2007, 05:49:14 PM
Quote from: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 05:38:01 PM
I can see why you think that, especially if you're a purist. I just personally view them as wonderfully stylized pieces geared towards children.

Yes, and that's what they are, but we see many stylized monster toys and many of those are, IMO, better styled than the Mego monsters.  I believe that if they weren't made by Mego, but instead were made by Mattel (or something) as monster toys, they would not have much recognition at all.   I love the Super Heroes and Planet of the Apes and other Megos, but feel that the monsters are among the least of the line.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 05:56:18 PM
I sort of like their interpretation of the monsters, so I guess it's all based on preference. I also think the castle playset is really a big motivator for me.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Dr.Terror on December 31, 2007, 06:16:43 PM
Megos are low on the totem pole for me simple because they aren't Universal.   The box art was fantastic, too bad the figures didn't look like it.  To me they feel like super villains as well, like Marvel characters.  I would put the AHIs at #1 on any other list but mine only because I never had one as a kid, only Remco's.   But for sheer overall coolness including packaging etc.., emotional attachments aside, AHI's are head and shoulders above the rest. 

No emotion attached, I'd  put Remco at #2.  Licensed, decent likenesses (Great on some like the Wolfman) Amazing box art, an action feature to "Crush" their victims and they glowed in the dark!   Not to mention the Monsterizer!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWS0fj9x-BQ
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 06:19:39 PM
The Monsterizer is one of the best Monster toys of the 70's/80's IMO. I've got both in my collection.

The Remco figures are really nicely done, the only thing I'd change on them is their bodies.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 06:41:38 PM
Thats the beauty of boards dedicated to the toys we love.We can discuss what we like and dislike about certain figures in a cordial manner and perhaps pick up new tidbits about these amazing figures
  Thanks guys
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 06:42:52 PM
Quote from: IC4CHAMBERS on December 31, 2007, 06:41:38 PM
Thats the beauty of boards dedicated to the toys we love.We can discuss what we like and dislike about certain figures in a cordial manner and perhaps pick up new tidbits about these amazing figures
  Thanks guys

Amen IC
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: roheimiana on December 31, 2007, 07:37:55 PM
I'm so enchanted with AHIs that I've started to grow them hydroponically....  ;D ;D ;D

(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/roheimiana/ahi002Large.jpg)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on December 31, 2007, 07:41:51 PM
What a cool picture, they look really nice.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Dr.Terror on December 31, 2007, 07:43:29 PM
Thats bootyful.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Toy Ranch on December 31, 2007, 07:49:56 PM
Here's what happens when you start crossing your toy lines...  ;D

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/2153408586_5b4e52b392_o.jpg)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: raycastile on December 31, 2007, 08:23:16 PM
You need to water that Frankenstein in the back a little more.  His jacket is late growing in.  At this stage, it should be a healthy black and covering his torso.  Maybe stick a fertilizing stake next to him.  You don't have any Draculas growing nearby, so the stake shouldn't be a problem.

Quote from: roheimiana on December 31, 2007, 07:37:55 PM
I'm so enchanted with AHIs that I've started to grow them hydroponically....  ;D ;D ;D

(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/roheimiana/ahi002Large.jpg)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: michblk on December 31, 2007, 08:28:05 PM
From the backside I'd vote for the AHI!

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/bkallenberg/mummy.jpg)


I think the AHI's are running a little behind in the voting.  I hope the mummy isn't em-bare-assed.....

BK
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on December 31, 2007, 09:42:52 PM
Is that a one-handed Lincoln Frankenstein?
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Roback on December 31, 2007, 10:03:37 PM
I guess my heart will always be with Mego, especially since I grew up playing with them. On the other hand, you gotta give AHI props for some dead-on likeness. They really are terrific sculpts.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Roback/Roback2007/AHIMummyheadsculpt2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Roback/Roback2007/AHIWolfmanheadsculpt.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Roback/Roback2007/AHIFrankensteinheadsculpt.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Roback/Roback2007/AHIDraculaheadsculpt.jpg)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: darkmonkeygod on December 31, 2007, 10:33:33 PM
Quote from: poseablemonster on December 31, 2007, 09:42:52 PM
Is that a one-handed Lincoln Frankenstein?

One with a flesh colored head no less.   
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 01:06:10 AM
While I agree that the AHI monsters have better overall head sculpts, I really prefer Mego monster bodies over the bodies of the AHI figures. Mego bodies are considerably more poseable, plus they have those cool glow in the dark hands! I like the other lines mentioned, especially Tomland and Lincoln, but I really prefer the Mego monsters overall.
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: MegoGeek on January 01, 2008, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 01:06:10 AM
While I agree that the AHI monsters have better overall head sculpts, I really prefer Mego monster bodies over the bodies of the AHI figures. Mego bodies are considerably more poseable, plus they have those cool glow in the dark hands! I like the other lines mentioned, especially Tomland and Lincoln, but I really prefer the Mego monsters overall.
George

It's hard for me to give AHI "credit" for their head sculpts since they were a direct "swipe" from the Aurora kits, from which they also took the package artwork. They then copied the Mego card style, layout and even copied the "World's Greatest Super" phrase. The only thing they did on their own was a body design, which I would have to say was lackluster. While AHI's overall presentation is impressive their originality is nil.

Besides as far as head sculpts go, in my opinion, nothing can touch the Mego Wolfman.


Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 01, 2008, 09:21:41 AM
Quote from: MegoGeek on January 01, 2008, 01:43:10 AM


Besides as far as head sculpts go, in my opinion, nothing can touch the Mego Wolfman.




Especially on the T-2 body ;)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 10:06:26 AM
Hey Vinnie,
Did you ever finish your set of T2 Monsters?
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 01, 2008, 10:49:10 AM
Quote from: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 10:06:26 AM
Hey Vinnie,
Did you ever finish your set of T2 Monsters?
George


George
   Yes i did .Thanks to your help on a few
   T2 Wolfman was by far the hardest to find
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on January 01, 2008, 10:57:25 AM
Quote from: IC4CHAMBERS on January 01, 2008, 09:21:41 AM
Especially on the T-2 body ;)

Pardon my ignorance but aren't those really difficult to find?


If I had to choose a fave Mego Monster, it'd be Wolfy. Always reminds me of the monster in the movie "The boy who cried Were-Wolf"
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: fmofmpls on January 01, 2008, 11:35:05 AM
Guys. I'll weigh in on this one. For me it's AHI all the way. Even if they ripped off the Aurora sculpts, and even if they borrowed from the Mego packaging, their figures were just plain better looking in terms of what they represented. Classic monsters are not meant to be stylized in my opinion. They can be camped as were the Lincolns, but not stylized. Camp monsters, like the Jaymar puzzle graphics, are silly fun and absurd. Stylized monsters are just plain boring. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. I sure hope Professor Griffin isn't reading this! 
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: 1975 on January 01, 2008, 10:57:25 AM
Pardon my ignorance but aren't those really difficult to find?


If I had to choose a fave Mego Monster, it'd be Wolfy. Always reminds me of the monster in the movie "The boy who cried Were-Wolf"

The Mego Monsters on Type 2 bodies are not common, but they're out there if you're patient. Most sellers on eBay don't mention in listings whether the figure they're selling is a Type 1 or Type 2, but if you study auction pics you can usually deduce which one is being offered.
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on January 01, 2008, 12:29:32 PM
Quote from: darkmonkeygod on December 31, 2007, 10:33:33 PM
One with a flesh colored head no less.   
Both my carded and loose U.S. Lincolns have flesh colored heads that are painted green just like that.  The U.K. version is molded in green plastic.
Now here's a weird one...I have a Dracula that has a head molded in green plastic and painted flesh colored! 
I asked about the hand because somewhere I have a Lincoln Frank hand that I found in a flea market junk box.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on January 01, 2008, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 11:39:13 AM
The Mego Monsters on Type 2 bodies are not common, but they're out there if you're patient. Most sellers on eBay don't mention in listings whether the figure they're selling is a Type 1 or Type 2, but if you study auction pics you can usually deduce which one is being offered.


Thanks, I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for those as I prefer the type 2 Mego body. I have put AHI figures on that body before.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 01, 2008, 12:48:49 PM
T2 Mego Wolfman is the hardest to locate because the fur is longer on the t2 wolfman
I think i have a few flesh colored headed Lincolns.I have to check now
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Toy Ranch on January 01, 2008, 01:50:43 PM
I only have one Lincoln, and it's a Wolf Man.  Getting the other Lincolns is something I want to do over the next couple of years or so...   The Tomlands would be great too, but I'll leave that to you guys who are much more into figures than I am. 
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Mego73 on January 03, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
I like the Megos, even though they did there own interpretation and I want to have movie based monsters toys. The AHI used the Aurora sculpts which were great but I think thier overall execution and painting was a bit sloppy. They are still pretty cool.

My dream was to have Mego do the movie monsters, especially Frankenstein. But to do so, I had to become Dr. Frankenstein and create one myself (with the help of a Matt Jaycox provided surplus sideshow Frankenstein head)

(http://megomuseum.com/albums/Mego73/samplemoviefrank.jpg)
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on January 03, 2008, 06:56:17 PM
Quote from: Mego73 on January 03, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
I like the Megos, even though they did there own interpretation and I want to have movie based monsters toys. The AHI used the Aurora sculpts which were great but I think thier overall execution and painting was a bit sloppy. They are still pretty cool.

My dream was to have Mego do the movie monsters, especially Frankenstein. But to do so, I had to become Dr. Frankenstein and create one myself (with the help of a Matt Jaycox provided surplus sideshow Frankenstein head)


That's breathtaking, really nice work.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 03, 2008, 08:05:56 PM
Quote from: Mego73 on January 03, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
I like the Megos, even though they did there own interpretation and I want to have movie based monsters toys. The AHI used the Aurora sculpts which were great but I think thier overall execution and painting was a bit sloppy. They are still pretty cool.

My dream was to have Mego do the movie monsters, especially Frankenstein. But to do so, I had to become Dr. Frankenstein and create one myself (with the help of a Matt Jaycox provided surplus sideshow Frankenstein head)

(http://megomuseum.com/albums/Mego73/samplemoviefrank.jpg)

That  really looks great.Where did you get the head for that
    Vinny
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Toy Ranch on January 03, 2008, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: Mego73 on January 03, 2008, 06:22:21 PM
My dream was to have Mego do the movie monsters, especially Frankenstein. But to do so, I had to become Dr. Frankenstein and create one myself (with the help of a Matt Jaycox provided surplus sideshow Frankenstein head)


When I was a kid, my favorite toys were GI Joe and Captain Action.  Over time I collected several suits for Captain Action and GI Joe wore some of the hero costumes as well.  I had a Man From Uncle 12" doll and a Honey West, too, so everybody got in on it.  One Christmas, when I was still believing in Santa Claus, but was old enough to question some things, I asked my Mom if Santa really makes his own toys...  (I'd never received one that wasn't in a TV ad or store catalog) and she said "Well... maybe".  I then made out my list and specified that I wanted a 12" Frankenstein doll to go with GI Joe and Captain Action.  Then I waited... and prayed every night.

Xmas morning came and I woke up at 5am or so, and ran into the den and looked under the tree for my 12" Frankenstein...  and instead I found Dr Evil.

Today I can appreciate Dr Evil, and surely I liked him OK when I was a kid too, but I had been SO explicit when I asked for that Frankenstein doll and that was the only thing I wanted and the only thing I asked for... I decided that Santa didn't make his toys after all...  :(

Several years later I got an AHI Frankenstein.  He was only 8" tall, not very poseable, and GI Joe could toss him around like a sandbag.  It wasn't until the 1990's that Kenner finally produced the first 12" Frankenstein figure.  I look back on those days and think if Ideal had only gotten a Universal license for Captain Action monster costumes...  sigh....
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on January 03, 2008, 08:29:52 PM
That's a fantastic Frankenstein - if only we had those in the 70's...
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Mego73 on January 04, 2008, 12:45:58 AM
Quote from: IC4CHAMBERS on January 03, 2008, 08:05:56 PM
That  really looks great.Where did you get the head for that
    Vinny
It's easy to miss but I did write that the head is from the Sideshow toys 8" figures.

For some reason, Matt Jaycox had some unpainted Sideshow heads and he sent me a couple. I tried to paint it to look like it was stencil painted ala Mego on green vinyl. I wanted to avoid shadowing or other things that I don't believe Mego would've done but I wanted to do something to help the eyes "sink in" so I think the ring around the eyes did the trick in a way Mego could've done it.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: fmofmpls on January 06, 2008, 04:56:12 PM
Quote from: Toy Ranch on January 03, 2008, 08:27:54 PM
I look back on those days and think if Ideal had only gotten a Universal license for Captain Action monster costumes...  sigh....

I share the same fantasy Bobby. I like the whole Captain Action concept a lot. Big fan. There have been plenty of custom Cap'n Action costumes along the way, and the classic monsters are no exceptions. I had a pic once of a boxed Dracula Captain Action costume complete with accessories. It looked absolutely fantastic! Wish I could find the pic though. I'm sure others have been made too. Sure would love to see some pics of Captain Action monster costumes! Anyone?
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Wich2 on January 06, 2008, 06:34:58 PM
Youse guys DO know that The Good Cap'n is having yet another rebirth, yes?

http://www.geocities.com/cptaction(*at*)verizon.net/

Best,
-Craig W.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: darkmonkeygod on January 06, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Quote from: Toy Ranch on January 03, 2008, 08:27:54 PM
I look back on those days and think if Ideal had only gotten a Universal license for Captain Action monster costumes...  sigh....

Bobby,

Did you know the MaxX FX line was originally pitched as a 12in line?  We got sooooo close.

It was a real shame Diamond Select wasn't more established when Playing Mantis was re-releasing CA.  Had they been, they might have found a way to produce the super-hero characters in partnership with DC Direct and Marvel.  Had that been successful, Monsters would not have been too far away.   

Anyone know if the owners of Capt. Action are planning to re-release the 12in?  I know they are partnering w/ Castaways Toys to produce Mego style versions or Cap & Dr. Evil (Now Eville for copyright purposes), don't know if any character costumes beyond the Phantom - Ghost Who Walks, not Of the Opera - are planned for those.  They do state they are planning customizing kits for both the 8 and 12in versions...

Check out http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/359/ (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/359/) for a great multi-part CA overview, and be sure to look at part six to see Gil Kane's fantastic use of Bela as ref for Doc Evil.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 20, 2008, 08:48:37 PM
Quote from: ramsey37 on January 01, 2008, 11:39:13 AM
The Mego Monsters on Type 2 bodies are not common, but they're out there if you're patient. Most sellers on eBay don't mention in listings whether the figure they're selling is a Type 1 or Type 2, but if you study auction pics you can usually deduce which one is being offered.
George
For example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200193200025&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=010
The seller listed the Frankenstein as Dracula. If you look carefully, it's obvious that "Dracula" is a T2 Frankie. And yes, I won the auction :)
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on January 20, 2008, 08:51:49 PM
Good eye on that one, George.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Wich2 on January 20, 2008, 09:04:20 PM
"Gil Kane's fantastic use of Bela as ref for Doc Evil"

Dear Shannon-

I'm an old dude getting over a virus, but help me out - I didn't see that there?

Curiously,
-Craig W.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: 1975 on January 21, 2008, 10:09:55 AM
Quote from: ramsey37 on January 20, 2008, 08:48:37 PM
For example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200193200025&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=010
The seller listed the Frankenstein as Dracula. If you look carefully, it's obvious that "Dracula" is a T2 Frankie. And yes, I won the auction :)
George

Ha! Count Frankie.

Congrats on your good get.
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: darkmonkeygod on January 21, 2008, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: Wich2 on January 20, 2008, 09:04:20 PM
"Gil Kane's fantastic use of Bela as ref for Doc Evil"

Dear Shannon-

I'm an old dude getting over a virus, but help me out - I didn't see that there?

Curiously,
-Craig W.

Sent a PM with the link, it's the last entry of the multi-part CA write up.

sts
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 23, 2008, 03:12:01 PM
Great grab George
  were either of the other two in that auction..T2's??
   Vinny
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 23, 2008, 08:25:01 PM
Quote from: IC4CHAMBERS on January 23, 2008, 03:12:01 PM
Great grab George
  were either of the other two in that auction..T2's??
   Vinny
No, the others are T1 Monsters, but at $25.00 a pop, it's still not a bad deal.
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: IC4CHAMBERS on January 24, 2008, 08:46:54 AM
Awesome deal..just like you said..Eagle Eye Ramsey ;D
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: ramsey37 on January 28, 2008, 11:18:39 PM
I just received the lot today. The seller was kind enough to throw in an extra figure gratis: a Type 2 Dracula wearing Frankenstein's missing jacket! Drac's knees are broken, but hey, free is free! :)
George
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: poseablemonster on January 30, 2008, 12:50:55 AM
Turned out to be an even better deal than you thought! ;D
Title: Re: AHI VS MEGO
Post by: Remco Monster on February 07, 2008, 12:00:24 AM
I am a HUGE fan of Mego toys. BUT, when it comes to the monsters, AHI kills them. In fact, AHI's Frankenstein is probably my favorite Frankenstein figure made.

Now, if we are including Remco, as a whole, Remco wins out in my opinion.