Universal Monster Army

There is a listing from the latest Hakes/Geppi's auction catalog (found on page 351) about the large Elwar Dracula button. It's also online at ww.hakes.com.

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=196&ItemNo=75583

Read the description for the Dracula button. What's wrong with this listing? Let's get some thoughts on this.

Best,
Richard

I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version.  








***Edit to link this thread with new information***

http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.0 (http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.0)

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 23, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version. 

That is correct. Hake's is very confused here. So that 'revision' version (clearly based on the style of art on the SMALL Elwar button)...WHAT is it's story?

I suppose they could have the story right about the changed image due to Bela Jr, but no clue.  I've seen one other pic of that variation before, and it might have been the one they are showing.  I don't recall where I saw it.  Very curious indeed.  Since that is the same as the small button, I think the story that it came later is probably accurate.  I was going to call them on Monday about it.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 23, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version. 

Awww man, I thought I had the rare one for a second.

BK

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 23, 2008, 03:48:36 PM
I suppose they could have the story right about the changed image due to Bela Jr, but no clue.  I've seen one other pic of that variation before, and it might have been the one they are showing.  I don't recall where I saw it.  Very curious indeed.  Since that is the same as the small button, I think the story that it came later is probably accurate.  I was going to call them on Monday about it.

I hope you get a response from them. I wrote an email but got none. The Lugosi thing is nearly impossible (for an explanation for this variation) for a number of reasons.

Check out this "past" auction.

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?AuctionItemID=43704

That's why I said that Hake's is confused. They can't be experts in everything (or anything, I suppose) but they should have sources to check with/confirm before they publish descriptions as truth. If they are just making up stories, it's no different/safer than eBay (without the buyers fee). They would better serve by just describing the item and not be inadvertently misleading.

I didn't even know there were two versions of the Dracula.  I need to check mine to see what I've got.  Maybe I have the almighty super-rare three-handed version.

Has the smaller one been proven to be vintage? It looks like someone just altered the 6 foot Dracula poster, fliipped it and shrunk it on a button. I don't ever recall seeing one of these smaller 'altered art' ones back in the day. Richard/Bobby, do you?

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 04:30:09 PM
I didn't even know there were two versions of the Dracula.  I need to check mine to see what I've got.  Maybe I have the almighty super-rare three-handed version.

Doubt it. Maybe, but doubt it, Ray. Unless you also have the super-super-super rare 2nd version small button artwork that your three handed version is based on. ::)

But to get back on track, has anyone ever seen this 2-hand large version before? I'm looking for any info.

Just to clarify...

This is the standard large Elwar button, and the one that Hake's is offering at auction.

(http://www.hakes.com/product_images/14/75583/001_big.jpg)

This is the alternate version they are talking about as being the common one.

(http://www.hakes.com/product_images/14/75583/002_big.jpg)

The photos are different sizes, but the buttons are the same size.  They are both 3 3/8".  This is the set of 6 they sold earlier this year, which included the alternate version.

(http://www.hakes.com/product_images/14/73212/001_big.jpg)

This is the small Elwar button that was sold in the 70's.  It is 3/4" in diameter.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/3053458355_17df92020d_o.jpg)

As to whether the one they sold in September is authentic, no telling...  but Hake's sells more pinbacks than anyone and while their story here is mixed up a bit, I think with as many buttons as they handle a fake/new button wouldn't slip through on them.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 23, 2008, 04:40:30 PM
It looks like someone just altered the 6 foot Dracula poster, fliipped it and shrunk it on a button.

It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

(http://universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/gallery/0/8_12_12_07_6_58_44.jpg)

Don't be so sure of that, Bobby! (re: slipping one through)

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 23, 2008, 06:33:31 PM

Don't be so sure of that, Bobby! (re: slipping one through)

I agree with this, Monster Bob. But I think this Dracula in question is authentic. I'm troubled by Hake's story and hope they talk to Bobby about it.

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 23, 2008, 05:40:23 PM
It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

The artwork style is similar (what Elwar was trying convey) but it doesn't seem to be the exact same artwork (I mean, from the same orginal source). The Creature might be a poor example because he is almost the same on the large and small button. Dracula, with his left hand raised and in the picture, along with his right  (on the small button) is the most dissimilar. 

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 23, 2008, 05:10:52 PM


As to whether the one they sold in September is authentic, no telling...  but Hake's sells more pinbacks than anyone and while their story here is mixed up a bit, I think with as many buttons as they handle a fake/new button wouldn't slip through on them.

I think they could be fooled. IMHO, I don't think they sold a 'fake' button here but don't know for sure. I don't understand why they had to make up a story about it. I don't know how they do business. Do people who consign items with them, give them a background on the treasure and they print it without verification? Where did the Lugosi Jr. story come from in relation to these buttons? One purchased the common "ol' one hand" large Elwar Dracula if you got it in a store in 1965 (I know), if you got it from the FM/Captain Company in the 70s (I know), or purchased it off of eBay in 2003 (I know). I've never seen this 'revision' version before. Also, the large Elwar Dracula is not that rare.
(Hake's lists the button as rare~if you look at their description of 'rare' in the definition contents section, they tell you that 'rare' is "We've seen 5 examples or less").
If they do indeed sell lots of buttons, they must have seen more than 5 examples of the common Elwar Dracula (I have 4 of them in a drawer right now and would sure part with one for a hundred!). Now, if they revise their description and call the "ol' 2 hand" large Elwar Dracula as rare, we have no argument. But where did it come from???

Do you have an extra Elwar large size Wolf Man you'd part with for $100???

I thought I had two Dracula buttons, but I just checked and I only have one.  It's the common one-handed version.  But I did discover something looking at my three Phantom buttons.  One is different from the other two.  I thought for a second that I had another "rarity."  But on closer inspection, I realized it was a repro.  How did a repro sneak in with my other genuine buttons?  It's kind of like the nerd whose always trying to hang out with the cool kids.  Ah well, I'll let him stay.  But if I can own a repro for years and not realize it, even after seeing it side-by-side with the real thing numerous times, I'm sure a fake can slip passed Hakes now and then.

Quote from: Richard on November 23, 2008, 07:32:07 PM
I think they could be fooled. IMHO, I don't think they sold a 'fake' button here but don't know for sure. I don't understand why they had to make up a story about it. I don't know how they do business. Do people who consign items with them, give them a background on the treasure and they print it without verification? Where did the Lugosi Jr. story come from in relation to these buttons? One purchased the common "ol' one hand" large Elwar Dracula if you got it in a store in 1965 (I know), if you got it from the FM/Captain Company in the 70s (I know), or purchased it off of eBay in 2003 (I know). I've never seen this 'revision' version before. Also, the large Elwar Dracula is not that rare.
(Hake's lists the button as rare~if you look at their description of 'rare' in the definition contents section, they tell you that 'rare' is "We've seen 5 examples or less").
If they do indeed sell lots of buttons, they must have seen more than 5 examples of the common Elwar Dracula (I have 4 of them in a drawer right now and would sure part with one for a hundred!). Now, if they revise their description and call the "ol' 2 hand" large Elwar Dracula as rare, we have no argument.

yeah...what he said...!  ;D

QuoteBut where did it come from???

Good question...remember though- buttons are real easy to make 'n' fake, and button kits were everywhere 20-30 years ago. You could easily buy kits to make buttons, we had one as kids. I'm sure you still can.

The 'devil horned' Dracula sure reminds me of that poster...yup.  :-X





,

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 08:00:55 PM
I thought I had two Dracula buttons, but I just checked and I only have one.  It's the common one-handed version.  But I did discover something looking at my three Phantom buttons.  One is different from the other two.  I thought for a second that I had another "rarity."  But on closer inspection, I realized it was a repro.  How did a repro sneak in with my other genuine buttons?  It's kind of like the nerd whose always trying to hang out with the cool kids.  Ah well, I'll let him stay.  But if I can own a repro for years and not realize it, even after seeing it side-by-side with the real thing numerous times, I'm sure a fake can slip passed Hakes now and then.

How do you know it's a repro, Ray? Is it the exact image on both? Same markings and button size? What gives it away?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 23, 2008, 05:40:23 PM
It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

(http://universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/gallery/0/8_12_12_07_6_58_44.jpg)

One looks copied off the other, which looks copied off FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! (Button has flames behind the head)  which looks copied from the Paint By Number box, which is copied from the game box, which is copied from the Aurora box, etc. etc.   *whew*

Actually, the Creature art on the card and big button are not the same...look at the yellow highlights...the eyes...plus they have a different number of upper teeth.

The button card artwork is identical to the art on the 1c small tin buttons... they just photographed the art in B&W and added a backround color.

And check out the lettering between the large and small buttons (which would have been a seperate piece of art from the backround art- probably white letters painted on clear celluloid). Anyway, they appear to be identical (or at least VERY close).


-------

Quote from: Richard on November 23, 2008, 08:17:56 PM
How do you know it's a repro, Ray? Is it the exact image on both? Same markings and button size? What gives it away?

It does not have the Universal copyright information on the edge.  That is the big giveaway.  I don't know why I never noticed that before, since that is the first thing I check when I buy one of these buttons.  Also, the text font is smaller and a little different from the genuine buttons.  The character art has more contrast and a little less detail than the original, and it looks a tad smaller.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 23, 2008, 08:25:35 PM

One looks copied off the other, which looks copied off FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! (Button has flames behind the head)  which looks copied from the Paint By Number box, whch is copied from the game box, which is copied from ther Aurora box, etc. etc.   *whew*

Actually, the Creature art on the card and button are not the same...look at the yellow highlights...the eyes...plus they have a different number of upper teeth.

Good catch, Bob! I hadn't looked at the Creature that closely.

OK, MUCH of my reason for wringing my hands about this is that this Hake's auction (and the previous one) brought an old eBay purchase back to my attention. THAT'S why I need to know anything anyone knows about this. And the Hake's story flip-flop doesn't help matters any.

Back in, I believe, 1999 (Damn, I don't have any records to check) I won an auction on eBay for 2 Elwar buttons. I was thinking it was just one button but now think it could have been a pair. Anyway, they were dirt cheap so I didn't bother complaining after receiving the goods (too much time had passed). The large Mummy button was different. Side to side, it's a bit more "crude" than the real McCoy but well-enough done that I didn't notice right away. I puzzled about this for a while but decided perhaps it was a fan produced knock-off and took it as a lesson to be more observent of the auction pics.

Now, present day, I saw this Dracula example come up on Hake's auction site. What the heck Elwar is this, I wondered? Then I remembered the 'bogus' Mummy button I picked up and pulled out all my Elwar buttons.

I wrote/spoke with a long time collector who I hoped would have some info. He had also never seen this 'revision' Dracula before and thought it to be a fake in the earlier Hake's sale of 6 buttons (even though, Hake's claims they don't sell fakes, that this is a Lugosi thing-lawsuit-mixup, anon, anon). Then I told him about my Mummy button, how I got it, etc. He gave it more thought. I sent him a high quality scan and he thinks it is not fan produced but, instead, machine (?layer sublimation or whatever that means?) produced based on magnifying the print pattern.

IT COULD VERY WELL be a fake, a fabulous fan produced tribute button and have nothing to do with Elwar. If one was going to cheat the buyer WHY CHANGE THE IMAGE? A fan produced tribute?...perhaps. That's what I thought, anyway, or else WHY don't more of these show up? But my monster collector friend doesn't think so (he leans toward a prototype/toy fair sample/...or...a foreign country pressing). He also wants to buy it and wants first crack at it if I wish to sell it.
That's why Hake's 'Lugosi' story doesn't make sense. Here is another EXACT SAME SIZE button with the COLOR artwork resembling the SMALL tin litho buttons. But it's the Mummy NOT Dracula. Lugosi Jr. won't sue Universal over Kharis.

This is all I know. I don't know to sell or not. I guess it depends on how much. I just wish I knew what these are all about!

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/smallandlargeMummyexamplesJPEG.jpg)

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/LargeElwarandunknownMummybackJPEG.jpg)

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/smallMummyJPEG.jpg)

***Note to repros of stuff....see how confused I am with this mess right now? And I know a thing or two about 60s monster toys! MARK your REPROS VERY WELL as repros because, as has been said, NO ONE is going to be able to sort out the real from the fake in the future! I guess some one else also mentioned that no one will care in the future so ... :-\ ***

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 08:40:56 PM
It does not have the Universal copyright information on the edge.  That is the big giveaway.  I don't know why I never noticed that before, since that is the first thing I check when I buy one of these buttons.  Also, the text font is smaller and a little different from the genuine buttons.  The character art has more contrast and a little less detail than the original, and it looks a tad smaller.

Man, that sounds like the pattern going on here with the Dracula & Mummy, Ray! Except for size (should be identical)
Geez, if we could find one more of any of these. A Wolf Man example (because of the paw placement) would really help!
I'm still thinking fan-produced. ONLY because they are so scarce (or 'rare' as Hake's would say).
See if you can post a comparison pic of your Phantom buttons. When I hold the 2 Mummy examples face-to-face, the size of the buttons are identical~no variation.

Richard

Your "other" large/color Mummy button appears to be the exact same art as the machine card and SMALL (1c) Mummy button. Is there any information on the rim? It appears to be the exact art, but more of it shown, as if shot off the original painting that the small button and card are taken from.

Is this Mummy and the horned Dracula from an earlier sixties, large Monster button set than the set we are familiar with?

Your Mummy looks compatible with my Phantom.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 23, 2008, 08:25:35 PM
Anyway, they appear to be identical (or at least VERY close).

Very!

(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/285/dracpinso3.gif)

I still think we just have some fakes in our collections, but then again, maybe we're onto something here.  I'll see if I can post some photos/scans later.

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
I still think we just have some fakes in our collections

But where did they get the artwork to make the fakes?

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 23, 2008, 09:21:29 PM
Richard

Your "other" large/color Mummy button appears to be the exact same art as the machine card and SMALL (1c) Mummy button. Is there any information on the rim? It appears to be the exact art, but more of it shown, as if shot off the original painting that the small button and card are taken from.

Is this Mummy and the horned Dracula from an earlier sixties, large Monster button set than the set we are familiar with?

Bob, it has NO markings of any kind. As we all know, the actual Elwar reads: "c. Universal Pictures Co, Inc - printed in USA; mfg by Elwar, Ltd NYC"
Nothing is on the unknown button.
That's why I always leaned towards a fan-produced button.

Hake's stated that the Dracula has no markings ~I quote from the previous auction { "All have Universal Pictures Co. Inc. copyright on rim curl with exception of Dracula due to ongoing image trademark litigation at the time between Universal and Bela Lugosi's son."}.

I would reply, "That's a good piece of material and it comes with 2 pairs of pants"

When I re-read their latest auction listing 'item description' again, I just shake my head.

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
I still think we just have some fakes in our collections, but then again, maybe we're onto something here.  I'll see if I can post some photos/scans later.

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 23, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
But where did they get the artwork to make the fakes?

Here is ONE possibility (and why my monster collector friend is interested in buying). I only present it for discussion coz I have NO IDEA!

Perhaps, artwork was created for buttons. Prototypes were made for a trade show to drum up business (the crude-ness of the lettering seems to hint at a prototype. "Here, put the name of the monster on it before you make up samples so Universal's happy"). Now the samples are shown at a trade show. And interest is strong...but for a small button that can be dispensed in gumball machines. No problem, we can do that sez Elwar. But the artwork is too busy on a 3/4 inch button and the tin litho begs for minimal color. They zoom in on the heads and cut out much of the artwork in making the dot-pattern tin litho small buttons. And the lettering is done again, only neater, on an additional separation in the printing.

All is well, product is being made~maybe even sold.

Then, maybe, someone decides that they really like the full color artwork idea on a larger button (maybe there is even a request for them by a jobber/distributor and Elwar sees a chance to make more money with their Universal license). They go back to the artwork but it's been lettered on...MAYBE EVEN LOST. Horrors, they say! We need to redo the artwork again. So this time, it turns out better,neater,more pleasing...and...the neat,nice lettering from the small buttons is reproduced on the large ones. These are sold happily ever after (Lugosi Jr., not withstanding).

Then, at some sad period of time, Elwar goes out of business and someone gets to take the sample buttons with original artwork home with them. To give to the kids, give to the neighbors,fill a small box at an estate sale, WIND UP ON eBay!

And now, 2008, no one remembers how this all came to be.

Then, again, maybe it's fan produced. I can make a damn good looking button of almost anything I want. I can use Photoshop and have an excellent scanner..and a printer.

I can't do these buttons like they are.

The mystery continues...

All the large Elwar buttons I currently own or have ever owned have round holes where the pin goes in the back.  The "unknown" Mummy up there has rectangular holes. 

I have noticed that sometimes the original art gets lost or damaged and a subsequent run of an item might be made using a copy of an original, rather than the original art.  Not sure how long the buttons were made, but it's possible that Elwar had a second run, which could account for the Mummy...  and possibly the Drac variations. 

Or they could be fake.

I guess Richard and I had the same thought, lol  Posting at the same time.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 23, 2008, 10:11:14 PM
All the large Elwar buttons I currently own or have ever owned have round holes where the pin goes in the back.  The "unknown" Mummy up there has rectangular holes. 

I have noticed that sometimes the original art gets lost or damaged and a subsequent run of an item might be made using a copy of an original, rather than the original art.  Not sure how long the buttons were made, but it's possible that Elwar had a second run, which could account for the Mummy...  and possibly the Drac variations. 

Or they could be fake.

I, too, thought about a second run (that's why my friend thought about a foreign country-based run~ without the Universal/Elwar made in USA markings)

I'd REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see more than one example of these (in my decades of collecting). Then I would like the Elwar second run theory better.

As it is, I keep going back to fan-based. But then, Mike Scott shows that small button card/large unknown artwork comparison and Elwar comes back into the picture.
Mike, can you compare the Mummy that I posted with the card image...like you did with Dracula. I've lost my small button Elwar card so can't compare them here.
Thanks!

Quote from: raycastile on November 23, 2008, 09:24:04 PM
Your Mummy looks compatible with my Phantom.

I forgot, Ray!
Check the holes that the pin comes through on the back of the unknown Phantom button. On my unknown Mummy button, they are rectangular but on the regular Elwar large buttons, they are circular (like Bobby said)

Quote from: Richard on November 23, 2008, 10:33:21 PM
Mike, can you compare the Mummy that I posted with the card image...

I put the button image over the card (at 50%) and you can see all the lines match up.

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/953/mummybuttonqu3.jpg)

Hoo-boy!
More info is coming from my contact person! I will post findings as soon as I can. There is additional info to consider, please be patient.
Best,
Richard

Here's my report, finally.

From what can be found/known, it seems that these strange variation buttons are 1st issue and not fan based. The image has a dot pattern (when magnified) that only a commercial printing press could do for the button. Mike Scott has already shown that the images on these large rare examples match the artwork on the cards for the small tin litho buttons.
Here is part of an email I received. I wanted feedback on where the images came from...



Okay, so to sum up my hypothesis based on all of the evidence in the prior emails -

Elwar FRANKENSTEIN:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - art based on the Famous Monsters 1965 Yearbook, released in 1964

Elwar DRACULA:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on Lowell Toy Mfg. Corp. 6 foot poster artwork (fangs, pointed nails, etc.) released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

Elwar WOLFMAN, CREATURE & MUMMY:
Small 7/8 inch pinbacks/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch buttons - same as above

Elwar PHANTOM:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - only possible item I could find is Famous Monsters #3, which came out in 1959
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

Forry wore the large buttons in the Unimart Don Post Show in late 1965/1966

Also attached as promised is a hi-rez scan of Forry wearing the buttons at the Unimart show - sorry the quality isn't better

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg)

Me (Richard) back again. The hi-rez scan of FJA shows him wearing these strange variation buttons in 1965 (NOT the common versions we all know and bought). On his right side is (from the top) Wolf Man, then Dracula (like the Hake's  variation button offering), then the Mummy (exactly the same as mine). On his left side is an "Astronut" button, then an unknown Lugosi photo Drac button, then a Creature button (which, again, is the image of the small tin litho Elwar and has the different lettering)

Now, questions~

Why was FJA wearing these? He many times got things sent/donated to him. Did James Warren get prototype Elwar buttons (which he wound up handling in Captain Company) and send them to his editor to wear and promote? I think they are samples/prototypes because they lack all the lettering on the edge (Universal, Elwar, made in USA, etc)

Why aren't there more of these variations around? We know Elwar had art made, had separations, film, and printing plates made, and produced at least one each of 4 monsters (FJA is wearing 'em in 1965). This is expensive to do and a company would need to produce many more than 1 of each to make any profit. Are there more out there? Check your Elwars, folks.

Why different artwork? These aren't Sideshow Collectables so Elwar would not have gone through all the upfront expenses, again, to produce new variations (improved artwork and lettering) for production run number 2 and on (Hey, these were for kids, not adult collectors...nothing wrong with the 1st variations in a kid's mind). So why did they do just that?

I'm thinking this...
These were 1st run buttons. Forget Lugosi Jr. lawsuit vs Universal, it has nothing to do with this. The artwork was then used on the header card and simplified for the small tin litho buttons.
The separations, film, printing plate production were all completed for large button production.
Now here is where I speculate~


But the printer (a) went out of business and nothing could be retrieved by Elwar. Time to start over again (b) The artwork,film,plates,everything were destroyed in a fire? (could happen~just ask Bob Burns about Fantastic Monsters of the Films #8 and all his stills and stuff to be used in that issue-lost forever in flame). Again, start over again to fill orders (c) Angry printer holding up all the production materials and work because of some disagreement (over money, time, ?) In the disagreement, the production materials would be held hostage and Elwar would be forced to obtain new artwork, separations, film, printing plates and go from there (with the common examples we have today).

How does any of this sound?
I hope more examples show up.
Until I know more about this and SEE more examples of the variation buttons, I'm going to believe FJA wore the Mummy button I know own.  ;D

Sorry to be so long winded~
That's all for now, folks
Best,
Richard

Here is my Phantom button.  Yes, it has rectangular holes.



(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/3055788394_a323ea73b5_o.jpg)



(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/3055788428_199329b2ed_o.jpg)

Thank you, Richard.  That photo certainly provides provenance for the alternate version Drac button.  The forum automatically resizes photos so they don't get too big.  If you want a larger image of the Forry photo, go directly to the link.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg)

Quote from: raycastile on November 24, 2008, 04:01:41 AM
Here is my Phantom button.  Yes, it has rectangular holes.

Wow, Ray!
Yep! The back of your Phantom button is dead-on correct in style & with the rectangular holes (identical to my Mummy example). The front image and lettering are different in keeping with this 1st series button mystery also.
THANK YOU for posting this!
Best,
Richard

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 24, 2008, 05:44:49 AM
Thank you, Richard.  That photo certainly provides provenance for the alternate version Drac button.  The forum automatically resizes photos so they don't get too big.  If you want a larger image of the Forry photo, go directly to the link.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg)

Thanks, Bobby!
The FJA picture (that my contact person sent) blew me away when I saw it. I need to find the FM issue that has Forry at this event to see if there any are additional pics/examples.
Best,
Richard

The artwork on my big Phantom button matches the vending machine card for the little buttons.  It is obvious when you compare the locks of hair on his forehead.  My button is obviously different from the standard version, but it perfectly matches the card artwork.

Now THIS is the kinda discussion I love on here. Keep going guys!!!

I checked all my buttons and sadly they are the "normal" versions.

That Lugosi button FJA is wearing could be from the Count Dracula fan club or society or whatever it was called. Or it could just be a fan made Lugosi button.

I know one thing. I'm not passing by the ebay auctions of these buttons with my usual "nothing new here" attitude.

I guess the Dracula mystery button is going to remain a mystery at Hake's. We have all seen the previous completed auction at Hake's that sold the mystery Dracula button with 5 other common buttons. Their present ongoing auction is for a common large Elwar Dracula button... I THINK! I'm not sure if THEY know.  ::)

This is a copy of the email I sent to Hake's auction house on 11/22/08, full of questions about the Dracula variation button they pictured(I know more about this now than I did then but I want to let everyone see what I wrote)

Hello,
First, thanks for your catalog! A lot of tempting items to bid on!
Now,
As to page 351 in the Auction catalog. You are presenting a 'fine' Elwar Dracula button at auction. I am completely confused about the description and story.

WHERE did you get this information and how did you verify it?

I am a collector of monster toys from the 60s and presently own 4 examples of this button (it's not really rare). But, I'm bothered by the 2nd button that you describe as the 'revision' to the first (The more stylized Dracula image with both hands present). I would contend that THAT is the rare and mystery piece. When these buttons were in the stores and when they were sold in Famous Monsters  magazine, the button was always the example to the left (that you are selling). The button on the right (that you claim is ? common ?), is one I have never seen. It is based on the style of the small Dracula Elwar button though. LOOK at the edge of it...DOES IT HAVE the Universal copyright & Elwar trade name on it?

If I were bidding on this, I would be MUCH MORE interested in that 2nd button! (Look at the 'hair horns'...they resemble the 6 foot Dracula poster image...which I can confirm as I have a couple of these too)

Again, PLEASE let me know how you came up with this auction description.
Thank you VERY MUCH for your time
Best regards to you and many thanks!

Richard Olson (a 55 year old monster toy collector)
Duluth, Minnesota

Now, today, this is the reply I got back

Richard,

We based the "rare" grading on the fact that we have never offered this button in our 41 years, only having offered the other version a few times in our history.  The button we are offering does bear the Universal/Elwar names on the curl. 

We based our description on the history of the Lugosi Estate and the copyright issues that arose during the 1960s, resulting in the removal of all Lugosi likenesses from Universal Dracula products.

Hope this helps.

Mike Bollinger
Hake's Americana & Collectibles

"Never offered this button in our 41 years?!" This guy is totally confused over what button he is auctioning! He goes on to say this rare button has the "Universal/Elwar names on the curl" He just doesn't get it. I'd like to talk to him in person but I doubt he would. Accuracy in item description at Hake's seems to be the same as let the buyer beware, IMHO.

And then the Lugosi nonsense. Hake's representative is just repeating copy. With no justification as to why this is stated as fact. I know the whole story/mess with Universal & Lugosi in the 60s but that resulted in products never offered, not removal & revision of monster toys and collectables that "made it through" (ie. Elwar buttons). As I've said before, if a seller fabricates tales for their wares, and if this info is depended on as accurate , then there is a measure of fraud. I thought I politely asked for information that would affect my bothering to bid at Hakes. I would have felt much better with a "we don't know". THAT would have been more accurate and honest. Maybe the 15% buyer's premium is for the creative writing. I'm sticking with eBay if this is how it is at Hake's. Of course, what's one customer to them.
>:(

If it were my company, trust in descriptions would be priority #1

Best,
Richard

I have two Phantoms -- one standard Elwar -- the other identical to Ray's.  I think the non-Elwars are first run Elwars.  Perhaps Universal got wind of these buttons and contacted Elwar and they worked out a deal.  So, they cleaned 'em up, used a better font, added copyright info and the rest is history.

There's one on eBay right now for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

I sold one for $35
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925)

By the way, did you know those small ones came out in 1960?  PSA says they did ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888)

I've owned 5 Dracula buttons, but I'm down to 1.  All of them were just like the one Hake's is selling.

Quote from: GAKENSTEIN on November 24, 2008, 09:51:00 PM
I have two Phantoms -- one standard Elwar -- the other identical to Ray's.  I think the non-Elwars are first run Elwars.  Perhaps Universal got wind of these buttons and contacted Elwar and they worked out a deal.  So, they cleaned 'em up, used a better font, added copyright info and the rest is history.

THANKS for this info! I thought, if more than one example of any of the non-marked buttons shows up, then we maybe have a 1st run production button rather than a prototype (I'm bothered by the lack of info on the button curl, though). Again, many thanks.

Though your idea of "Universal getting wind of these buttons..." is an interesting one, I have a difficult time with it. Let's say, Elwar wants to sell large buttons "under the table" so they can avoid Universal fees. They don't want anyone to know who made them so they leave off the Elwar name too. WHY keep the manufacturer a big secret? The artwork they used is the same (actually the source) on the small button ad card AND was shrunk/tin litho'd for the small buttons that DO contain the Elwar/Universal info. So I'm assuming that license was "already in hand" and no argument existed. Also I believe, a company used to have to indicate the country of manufacture (ie. Made in USA, Made in Hong Kong, etc) somewhere on the product or box to sell them at retail. I think it's still required but don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about this.

But the biggest question mark is...why create New art, New separations, etch NEW printing plates...JUST to place info on the button curl? This would be an expensive re-do, even in the 60s. As was mentioned, the kids would not have cared which artwork was eventually used. And these were for children! Elwar was trying to make money for itself, not create future collectables that looked a bit nicer/neater in their second coming. The font used was it's own separation, so it was the same on the small tin litho buttons and the common large ones. An "info" separation could have been added to the original artwork in production without the additional expenses of starting COMPLETELY over.

I do agree/believe that these non-marked large buttons came first.
And I really think the ability to produce them, with this artwork, was lost very early on.
The reason I cling to the "lost everything/burned everything/stole everything at the printers" theory is because it would force Elwar to start over again to fulfill orders. Added expenses for them but they had no choice as there were orders to fill. So, bring in another artist to create new artwork to resemble the first (only his artistic style, by luck, turned out a finer, more pleasing image). The line font (The Mummy, The Phantom, etc) separations already exist for the small buttons so no need to recreate these again. Also, the 1st button backs are different from the 2nd button backs. This would indicate a change in the jobber that Elwar used.

I just don't think the "1st button Dracula looks like Lugosi so we had to change it to the 2nd button version to get Jr. off our backs" theory has any merit whatsover, despite what Hake's auction listing thinks. Look at the two images...does anyone really think the 2nd Dracula looks less like Lugosi than the first?  ::)  A non-issue here.

~Other ideas that have been floated by~
1) the idea that these non-marked buttons were made for foreign toy markets and didn't require/want the Universal/Elwar marks.
Seems unlikely. How many have shown up in foreign lands over the decades?
2) that these are 1st run prototypes to be shopped/promoted/given out (to stir up interest).
Maybe to show to Universal to obtain license.
Well?...maybe?...pretty expensive for a test run, though. And why not, at least, have the info on the curl to advertise your company?
3) a 1st run mistake. "Damn, we produced 1,000 buttons and we FORGOT to include the info on the curl! Oh, well, no use throwing out perfectly good product. Let's get it right on the rest of the buttons, though"
This could happen I suppose...but WHY change the artwork?
4) That there are A WHOLE TON OF THESE out there. But NO ONE has BOTHERED to look/compare their own buttons up until now because they weren't aware of the existence of 2 versions. Once everyone checks their stuff, we could have a whole army of these 1st issues.
But then we are back to the "why no info on the curl" problem

and last,

5) These are 'fake copy'  buttons to cheat the market (the world's first repro in the monster toy market)
And FJA made 'em and decided to wear 'em in 1965 at the Unimart store.

Thanks again, for the post, Gakenstein!
Anyone else, ideas?
This IS fun to speculate
Best,
Richard

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 24, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
There's one on eBay right now for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

I sold one for $35
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925)

By the way, did you know those small ones came out in 1960?  PSA says they did ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888)

I've owned 5 Dracula buttons, but I'm down to 1.  All of them were just like the one Hake's is selling.

Thanks, Bobby!
That's why I said, I'll take $100 for my extra Dracula!  :D :D :D
These are not as rare/expensive as Hake's thinks they are!

And PSA is losing ground in credibility  ::) I think doing this to a collectable is really dumb, anyway!

Because, Hmmmm...I see 4 of the buttons ~ that are rated/graded/placed in an air free atmosphere/sprinkled with pixie dust/entombed forever/charged a useless fee ~marked as 1960 by PSA and the Frankenstein and Creature are 1965! I love solid information like that. If you asked 'em how they arrived at these dates, they'd be like my cats after breaking something. "Who me? I didn't do it? Don't know how this happened!"
Oh,well.

Thanks again, Bobby, for your valued imput!
Best,
Richard

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 24, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
There's one on eBay right now for $50

So, hows come this one has round holes on the back and the copyright info on the edge? Another variation?

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 24, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
I sold one for $35

Which version was it?

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 24, 2008, 11:29:32 PMPSA says they did

Are there any cases like that for buttons that you can open and close?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 25, 2008, 12:48:08 AM
So, hows come this one has round holes on the back and the copyright info on the edge? Another variation?

The one on eBay for $50, Mike?... It's a common version Dracula.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

The common button SHOULD have round holes on the back and copyright info on the edge. The variation has rectangular holes on the back, no button curl info at all, and the different font/artwork. The seller has the common button. But there is that goofy Lugosi vs Universal thing again.

He states, in his description~

>>"Available via the Famous Monsters magazine of the 1960's, the set is comprised of six 3.5' size full-color cello buttons made by Elwar Ltd. c. 1965. ©Universal Pictures Inc. These buttons include Wolf Man, The Phantom, The Mummy, The Creature, Frankenstein and Dracula. All have Universal Pictures Co. Inc. copyright on rim curl with the exception of Dracula due to ongoing image trademark litigation between Universal and Bela Lugosi's son (which STILL goes on to this day!).  This listing is for the Dracual button."<<

Why is this Lugosi problem so prevalent in these button descriptions?

I emailed the seller of this auction. I said, If he'd just look at the picture of the back of HIS button that HE posted, he would see the info/copyright printed right on the edge (I can see it).

It's also interesting that these buttons are being dated so easily. There are NO dates on any of the buttons. 1965 seems the best fit for the appearence of the large Elwars. I wonder if this is "monkey see, monkey do" by the sellers when they date these items. Otherwise, how would they know? I don't have the small button card, Mike. Does THAT show a date on it anywhere?

Best,
Richard

Quote from: Richard on November 25, 2008, 01:44:04 AM
The one on eBay for $50, Mike?... It's a common version Dracula.

Oh crap, it is! For some reason, I was expecting it to be the other and didn't really even look at it.

Quote from: Richard on November 25, 2008, 01:44:04 AMI don't have the small button card, Mike. Does THAT show a date on it anywhere?

Nope, no date. Just Universal and Elwar and USA. Must have come out after FM Speaks in '63.

I always assumed the lack of copyright info on the edge branded these as fakes.  There have been PLENTY on ebay with no writing on the edge.  I know because I've passed on them for that reason.  But now I will be paying attention to them!  I've already got a head start with the Phantom, so I might as well collect 'em all.

Quote from: raycastile on November 25, 2008, 02:18:14 AM
I always assumed the lack of copyright info on the edge branded these as fakes.  There have been PLENTY on ebay with no writing on the edge.  I know because I've passed on them for that reason.  But now I will be paying attention to them!  I've already got a head start with the Phantom, so I might as well collect 'em all.

I wouldn't mind having some other examples, myself!  ;D
'Know what, Ray? After this UMA thread has described the variations in detail, we'll probably start seeing some nice fake repro buttons all over eBay  ::)


Best,
Richard

Does anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.  A google search on Elwar Ltd ONLY comes up with links back to the monster buttons, and scant few of those.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search)

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 25, 2008, 08:55:12 AM
The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.

Since it's not a complete address, it wouldn't have/need a zip code. Zip codes started in '63.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 25, 2008, 08:55:12 AM
Does anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.  A google search on Elwar Ltd ONLY comes up with links back to the monster buttons, and scant few of those.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US272&q=%22elwar+ltd%22&btnG=Search)

Bobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

That PSA-graded small button eBay auction with the dating -on 4 of them- as 1960?...dooooon't think so! The other two buttons, dated 1965?...yeah, this is possible/probable.

Best,
Richard

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 25, 2008, 10:06:59 AM
Since it's not a complete address, it wouldn't have/need a zip code. Zip codes started in '63.

I've seen company lines like that have zip codes on them, even if they aren't complete addresses.  But obviously that isn't necessary.

Zip codes started in 1963, but didn't become mandatory for anything until 1968, when they became mandatory for 2nd and 3rd class mail.  It wasn't until 1971 that they became mandated for 1st class mail, as part of the postal service reorganization. 

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 25, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
But obviously that isn't necessary.

That's what I meant, that lack of zip didn't indicate that it came before zip, which is what I thought you were going for.

BTW, does anybody know of any other products (or even any other buttons) mfged by Elwar?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 25, 2008, 10:28:36 AM
BTW, does anybody know of any other products (or even any other buttons) mfged by Elwar?

I don't, Mike.
And this is a REALLY good question!

Quote from: Richard on November 25, 2008, 10:17:15 AM
Bobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

That PSA-graded small button eBay auction with the dating -on 4 of them- as 1960?...dooooon't think so! The other two buttons, dated 1965?...yeah, this is possible/probable.

Best,
Richard

Well, that makes sense with my (failed) attempts to research Elwar.  I always figured they made many buttons, of all different sort, but all my searches dead-end with monster buttons.  The small ones are reasonably plentiful, and their condition suggests that there was a warehouse find of them.  The reports of seeing them in gumball machines through the 70's and into even the 80's (if accurate), indicate the production was fairly large, compared to the big buttons, which are scarce if not rare.  The Dracula, Phantom, and Mummy seem to be the most plentiful of the large size.  The Frankenstein and Creature show up less often and tend to go for more money.  The Wolf Man has eluded me and several others here for years.  I think the last one I saw and bid on, I was outbid at $140.  I've had a saved search for it, sorting through Wolf Man buttons on eBay for at least a couple years. 

Getting back to Elwar...  if the buttons they made were only monster buttons, it may have been a flash-in-the-pan company that only made buttons for a year or less. 

I remember the small ones on display. I saw them in 1c machines with that header-for sure. One time in the middle of Florida at a tourist stop- about 1967 I'd say. Once near Lacaster, Pa., once in Ohio- both about 1968 or so. Then again in Florida, probably 1971-ish.  The buttons would be mixed in with 1c gumballs, but you'd have to spend a quarter to get a button- there were never many buttoms in the machine, compared to the gumballs.



I know in about 1982 or so I bought hundreds of these buttons (small) and probably 30 header cards, all old 1960s stock. There was a big find of gumball stuff, and I bought anything Monster they had. I used to sell sets at Toy Shows and eventually Toy Shop.

Thanks, Bob, for your knowledge on this!

I think I will try to "put this to bed" until someone comes up with additional information we haven't discussed yet.

Gackenstein, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post a pic of your variation Phantom button, front and back, so we can compare with Ray's. THANKS!

OK, here is what I believe based on what I know, have seen, and have been told...

I THINK the most likely scenario is this one-
Elwar ran into some kind of problem with the printer/supplier of the 1st run (money/deadline dispute, warehouse fire, bumbled with omitting info on the curl dispute, etc.) and the first version materials (orig art, separations & plates, etc.) were no longer available - but by then, there were orders to fill already based on the style of the 1st run.  So Elwar commissioned the illustrations to be recreated - which definitely would explain why the two illustrations are SO similar - orders had already been placed based on that 1st run style/artwork, and so they proceeded to manufacture/fill the new orders with the 2nd version buttons.

It's the only scenario where all of the circumstances and clues make sense.

What I do not believe is they are fan made; do not believe Elwar went to the expense just to make them a little more detailed for kids; and definitely do not believe the two versions have ANYTHING to do with the Lugosi vs Universal lawsuit. 

I'm done with this, for now.
Thanks, all, for your imput!
Best,
Richard

Quote from: Richard on November 25, 2008, 11:09:30 PM
OK, here is what I believe based on what I know, have seen, and have been told...

Works for me!

Here's another shot of Forry wearing those buttons. It's scanned from the new issue of Rue Morgue. The "unknown" Lugosi button says Member at the top, but I can't make out the wording at the bottom. However, I don't think it's from the Count Dracula Society.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/JimBertges/Miscellaneous/scan0002-3.jpg)

It is difficult to tell... could be MEMBER  BELA LUGOSI FANCLUB ??

Can anyone produce an ad when the 'common' buttons were first advertised in FM? I don't know that I remember them in the magazine's ads pre 1970 or so...  I know they have always been said to be mid-1960s...but maybe they are a bit later than thought?



What I'd be interested in seeing is the Frankenstein #1 button!

The #1 & #2 Mummy-Wolf-Creature buttons look stolen right off of FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! but differ slightly from each other.

The #1 Dracula w/ horns more resembles the 6 ft Dracula poster. Perhaps the horns on the poster-then the button- were put in place to change the image enough to cool young Lugosi off? Maybe his Universal litigation had already started? (It was always said that it was the Paint By Numbers that set Junior off)  Why else would you "horn" Dracula, making him look like THE MAD MAGICIAN, other than to change the image? And why alter just Dracula? The Lugosi suit would explain it, I guess....



But it's the Frankenstein I'd like to see...is the Frank art on button #1 like the 'common' button, or more like the Glenn Strange image that is used on FAMOUS MONSTERS  SPEAK! ...? The Frank art used on the 'common' button is toned down from the record- not nearly as dramatic.

Quote from: Jim Bertges on November 26, 2008, 01:57:19 AM
Here's another shot of Forry wearing those buttons.

Oh man! Look at all those mint condition FM paperbacks! D-rool, d-rool!

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 06:25:02 AM

The #1 & #2 Mummy-Wolf-Creature buttons look stolen right off of FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! but differ slightly from each other.

The #1 Dracula w/ horns more resembles the 6 ft Dracula poster. Perhaps the horns on the poster-then the button- were put in place to change the image enough to cool young Lugosi off? Maybe his Universal litigation had already started? (It was always said that it was the Paint By Numbers that set Junior off)  Why else would you "horn" Dracula, making him look like THE MAD MAGICIAN, other than to change the image? And why alter just Dracula? The Lugosi suit would explain it, I guess....

I agree with your sources, Bob. I think Frankenstein variation will, indeed, be the artwork off of the Famous Monsters Speak LP.

I posted the info, below, earlier in this thread but FORGOT to mention the variation along with the small buttons.


Elwar FRANKENSTEIN:
Small  and large variation 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - art based on the Famous Monsters 1965 Yearbook, released in 1964

Elwar DRACULA:
Small and large variation 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on Lowell Toy Mfg. Corp. 6 foot poster artwork (fangs, pointed nails, etc.) released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

Elwar WOLFMAN, CREATURE & MUMMY:
Small and large variation 7/8 inch pinbacks/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch buttons - same as above

Elwar PHANTOM:
Small and large variation 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - only possible item I could find is Famous Monsters #3, which came out in 1959
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

THANK YOU, Jim, for that great picture of FJA wearing the buttons!!!

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 06:25:02 AM
Can anyone produce an ad when the 'common' buttons were first advertised in FM?

Oy! You mean look through every issue till you find the first one with an ad?  :D

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 06:25:02 AM...is the Frank art on button #1 like the 'common' button, or more like the Glenn Strange image that is used on FAMOUS MONSTERS  SPEAK! ...?

Since the other ones we've seen are the same as the small buttons/card, I would assume the 1st large Frank would be, too.

For easy reference.

(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9333/fmspeaksej5.jpg)

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 06:25:02 AM
Can anyone produce an ad when the 'common' buttons were first advertised in FM? I don't know that I remember them in the magazine's ads pre 1970 or so...  I know they have always been said to be mid-1960s...but maybe they are a bit later than thought?

Bob, I thought I was done with this thing but.... :P

You are correct~
I can't think of seeing an ad for the large Elwars before 1970. I always assumed (this is a REALLY BAD thing to do) that the large Elwar buttons were 60s products BECAUSE FJA WAS WEARING THEM IN 1965. But they WERE NOT the INFO-LABELED Universal/Elwar buttons we mostly have. Perhaps the Elwar labeled variations aren't 60s products but products of the 70s (Mike, you'll have to change the gallery!  ;D ) I remember buying one in a store but don't remember when (unlike the small Wolf Man Elwar I got). ANYONE remember getting the large Elwar monster buttons in the 1960s?

Y'know, WHAT IF, the uncommon variations ARE NOT Elwar buttons. Famous Monsters was all over that Famous Monsters Speak record LP. Forry is wearing large buttons that take their artwork right off that record LP. Perhaps some other company made these large variations ...for Famous Monsters?...for Forry? ...for a very limited market? ...for samples? ...for ?

I'm still really bothered why there is no info on these large variations.

MAYBE they ARE NOT Elwar buttons. But, then who made them and why?

These 1st issue large buttons, not originating at Elwar Ltd., actually fits this mystery quite well.

Now, here is where the Lugosi vs Universal deal could come into play. I still HATE the Lugosi Jr. lawsuit as changing anything that was already in the marketplace. That didn't happen and makes no sense. Bob, you stated that the Paint-By-Number set set Lugosi Jr. to action. I've always heard it was the Aurora model that did it. But neither of those items were bothered at all in the marketplace. They survived without ANY changes (unlike the Aurora "Anthony Quinn" Hunchback).
I didn't believe the Lugosi lawsuit had any effect at changing button designs before and still don't. But stopping the sale of any more product (1st variation buttons), maybe. Especially if we are now talking about an entirely different company producing them. Or, how about Universal stopping them because said company has no license (no info on the curl).

So now Elwar comes along and ...ahem...'borrows' the artwork off these large buttons and sets to work making small buttons and header cards with it. Then, much, much, much later down the road (when artwork is long gone), Elwar decides to make large versions (with copyright info on them) ~VERY late 60s or early 70s.

How does any of this sound?

I still wish to see examples of ANY NON-LABLED large variations that UMA members may have, PLEASE!!!!
Thank you!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

Best,
Richard

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 26, 2008, 09:43:25 AM
Oy! You mean look through every issue till you find the first one with an ad?  :D

Mike, we have to do that cross-indexed monster magazine ad project so we can find stuff quick!  ;)

Quote from: Richard on November 26, 2008, 10:48:43 AM
Mike, we have to do that cross-indexed monster magazine ad project so we can find stuff quick!  ;)

Yeh, right! I think the FM Chron book only mentions the ads on the back covers. Can't remember if the CD Rom index indexes ads, but I don't think so.

I'm thinking maybe this whole thing is simpler than we think.

I'm also thinking maybe all these buttons were made by Warren Publishing, later using the name "Elwar", which is probably somebody's cat.

Warren made a set of Munsters buttons in 1965, and the art, style, and size strongly resembles these Elwar Monster buttons, but they are clearly marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO. on the rim. So Warren makes some buttons...they did that all along for their publications, too (Eerie buttons, etc.) They were probably even made at the same printer's that produced Famous Monsters. And we know for sure they made a "run" of monster buttons in '65, as documented in the FJA photo.

Borrowing art from the 6ft Dracula poster for the first Dracula button (also used on a 60s Magic Set I have somewhere) which was already out for a couple of years at that point, and had the altered horned-Lugosi art. The Aurora Dracula kit had been out since 1962 and the Paint Set since 1963, so either of those could have been the catalyst for the Lugosi vs. Universal suit, and just one or two years later it is not a stretch to believe that Lowell added some horns and pointy fingernails to their Dracula poster art, in order to possibly sidestep trouble that was already brewing.   



Soooooooo.......my vote is that all of this "Famous Monsters" stuff...the FMS record, the different size buttons, the paperbacks, etc., were all produced by...yes...FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND.

It seems all of these magical old businesses were not the mega-operations we picture in our minds- these places are usually run by 3 or 4 guys...Don Post included!

Occam's Razor to the rescue! 

That does make a great deal of sense, Bob. 

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 03:52:43 PM
Warren made a set of Munsters buttons in 1965, and the art, style, and size strongly resembles these Elwar Monster buttons, but they are clearly marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO. on the rim.

Then why not put Warren Pub. on these, too?

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 03:52:43 PM
And we know for sure they made a "run" of monster buttons in '65, as documented in the FJA photo.

Not sure how that photo documents them being made by Warren?

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 03:52:43 PM
Soooooooo.......my vote is that all of this "Famous Monsters" stuff...the FMS record, the different size buttons, the paperbacks, etc., were all produced by...yes...FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND.

The paperbacks were published by Paperback Library, but the material in them was licensed from Warren. No mystery about those.

Warren definately made Munsters buttons in 1965, which are marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO

The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved (or was behind it from the beginning) in their manufacture. That's what it documents- the year of those #1 buttons, which is an important fact in the investigation.

The first run are unmarked. Who knows why? Maybe then got a CAD letter and suddenly  stopped making them, then years later bought the rights to the characters. Of course,  they then would then have to submit artwork for approval to Universal, so they had some schmo artist repaint the same six characters for the new buttons. They aren't exactly masterpieces, and any decent artist could blow out the set of button art in a day or two.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
Warren definately made Munsters buttons in 1965, which are marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO

The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved (or was behind it from the beginning) in their manufacture. That's what it documents- the year of those #1 buttons, which is an important fact in the investigation.

The first run are unmarked. Who knows why? Maybe then got a CAD letter and suddenly  stopped making them, then years later bought the rights to the characters. Of course,  they then would then have to submit artwork for approval to Universal, so they had some schmo artist repaint the same six characters for the new buttons. They aren't exactly masterpieces, and any decent artist could blow out the set of button art in a day or two.

Elwar being a subsidiary of Warren? It still works in my possibilities. Doesn't matter who's company it is. Nothing else has shown up for Elwar so it could be a "front" subsidiary. Since there is a possiblity that the 2nd series large buttons were made years later, losing the original artwork and having to recreate it works too, as I've said.

A post back, Bob, you talked about the Lowell Dracula artwork. We know its on the first button variation. I didn't follow what that had to do with the timeline & genesis of the buttons. Did you imply that if Warren produced the 1st buttons and owned the artwork (the company too) that created the FMS record, that they would borrow the Lowell artwork rather than use the FMS artwork to avoid litigation? Please explain.

A cease & desist could've come down on the 1st series buttons. But not just because of the Lugosi vs Universal lawsuit. It would more likely be that they weren't licensed. THAT would stop production ("No copyright on the curl, boys! What? We didn't get a license?"). ALL of these auction explanations about the Dracula button image change-over and/or that's why they left the copyright off the buttons, BECAUSE of the lawsuit ~ are hogwash. Can we agree to that?
If THE ONLY problem was the Lugosi Dracula, WHY cancel the other five? Pre-production is done and there's $ to be made. The Lugosi lawsuit just doesn't do it for me with these button variations.

If Warren owned the company, was the company, knew the company, etc. for the first production buttons and had access to product, WHY not sell the small tin-lithos through Captain Company too? I don't think Jim Warren was ever shy about putting product in the pages of Famous Monsters. Licensed small tin litho buttons, BTW.

So, maybe these 1st series buttons were not meant to be sold?

It would be nice if someone could ask Jim Warren. Need some more clues here. Occam's razor would be nice but can anyone add anything else known? We can end this if everyone's satisfied.

Unless another Mummy variation unmarked shows up, I'm taking dibs for my button being on FJA's lapel!  ;D

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
The photo of FJA is from 1965, and he is wearing similar "Monster" buttons. This  proves that both sets of buttons were made in 1965, and most likely Warren was involved

Yes, it documents the date, but I don't see how it says Warren was likely involved. Is it possible? Anything's possible.

Quote from: Richard on November 26, 2008, 06:23:10 PM
WHY not sell the small tin-lithos through Captain Company too?

That's another point I was going to make. If they're Warren buttons, they would have bee sold through CC.

Quote from: Richard on November 26, 2008, 06:23:10 PM


A post back, Bob, you talked about the Lowell Dracula artwork. We know its on the first button variation. I didn't follow what that had to do with the timeline & genesis of the buttons. Did you imply that if Warren produced the 1st buttons and owned the artwork (the company too) that created the FMS record, that they would borrow the Lowell artwork rather than use the FMS artwork to avoid litigation? Please explain.

My point was only that the changing of the art on the poster was likely done as a response to the "Lugosi suit" due to the dates involved; it would be interesting to get an exact date on when the poster came out. I think the box is dated 1963, but I think we got them new like more in 1965.  The poster stole the exact pose from FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! and altered the arms and head- so for sure the record preceded the poster (the record shows an unaltered Lugosi.) Then apparently the first button came after the poster, as it seems to have stolen the altered horn art from the poster.

With the dates of Aurora kit ('62) and the Paint Set ('63) taken into consideration, I think it's logical to figure the "horn" altering was a response to the Lugosi suit, a couple of years later. With the button being definately out in 1965 (thanks to that FJA photo) we also know the poster was for sale after the paint set (63) and before the button (65), for sure.

I went and found the Monster Magic set...obviously this art was stolen from the poster/record...Dracula is really looking like the MAD MAGICIAN here, and they turned Frankenstein into Mr. Clean!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/backlotcharlie/MAGIC.jpg)

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 07:29:21 PM


My point was only that the changing of the art on the poster was likely done as a response to the "Lugosi suit" due to the dates involved; it would be interesting to get an exact date on when the poster came out. I think the box is dated 1963, but I think we got them new like more in 1965. 

OK, I was confused how this involved the buttons directly. You are speaking of the poster art alone~ as a precurser to the buttons (ie. whatever image was left standing was going to be the button image). Agreed, alterations on the Lowell Dracula 6 ft poster art could very well be a defense in response to the Lugosi suit -for Lowell (another Warren Company?  ;) )

So, do you think the Hake's auction is correct after all? I'll print part of it again.
>>"This first version features a stylized version which clearly represents Bela Lugosi's portrayal as Count Dracula. This version of the button saw extremely limited distribution due to a trademark infringement claim made by Lugosi's son. The design was ultimately changed, featuring the more common design showing an altered face, 2 hands instead of 1 ...anon,anon)"<<

Putting aside the fact that they don't know what button they are talking about, can this scenario fit the picture? A cease & desist and all the buttons go in the trash heap? I like the copyright infringement (ie. no license on the buttons) a whole lot better.
But, certainly, the Lowell artwork instead of the FMS LP art could have been a defensive stance.

I have the Lowell Frankenstein 6 ft poster box. It should match the Dracula with year info. I'll check it and post back. I'll also see if I can tell what # FM that the posters first hit Captain Company.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 07:40:42 PM

I went and found the Monster Magic set...obviously this art was stolen from the poster/record...Dracula is really looking like the MAD MAGICIAN here, and they turned Frankenstein into Mr. Clean!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/backlotcharlie/MAGIC.jpg)

That's cool! Dracula is starting to look more like Karloff  ;D

Quote from: Richard on November 26, 2008, 07:58:05 PM
I have the Lowell Frankenstein 6 ft poster box. It should match the Dracula with year info. I'll check it and post back. Company.

Yep, 1963. Hmm..that was a bit of time before these posters hit the street. A release delay because of the lawsuit? Change in artwork?

The main reason I think Bob's theory makes a lot of sense is that nothing else turns up from Elwar  If they were an independent button company, you would think they would make more than just monster buttons.  Even if they were short lived, they'd try a broader product range than that. 

The fact that Warren made buttons that are similar to the small ones further advances it.

And also, it was pretty common at the time for people to start multiple businesses under different names towards building an empire.  Going into the button business?   Start a button company.  1965 is the year Warren moved from Philadelphia to New York, and Elwar is placed in New York by the card.   

I checked online and New York doesn't have records going back that far in their database.  I bet they do have the records available for searching though.  Maybe a FOIA request is in order....

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 26, 2008, 10:56:10 PM
And also, it was pretty common at the time for people to start multiple businesses under different names towards building an empire.

Seems silly to go through all the paperwork to incorporate another company just to produce a couple of sets of buttons, especially when they were already making buttons under the Warren Pub name, and then not sell the one set through CC.

Elwar Ltd.

Limited partnership?  Between Warren and some dude with button making gear?

Later Warren bought the equipment?

Lots of possibilities

Here is a scan of the top of my Lowell 6 ft. Dracula poster box.


(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8681/66602bv3.jpg)

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 01:01:27 AM
Elwar Ltd.

Limited partnership?  Between Warren and some dude with button making gear?

Later Warren bought the equipment?

Lots of possibilities

I know less than nothing about the buttons, but maybe there's a clue in the company name about something. But I love a mystery.

Frist I thought of the Walt Disney company that was created to look after the interestes of the Disney family and the use of the Disney name, it was called RETLAW or Walter spelled backward. Is there any meaning in the name RAWLE?

Or perhaps the Elwar name is a combination of the names of two partners, someone whose name starts with EL and James WARren.

Just some food for thought as you button detectives continue to dig into this very mysterious mystery.

..or like The Beatles and SELTAEB (merchandising end of The Beatles- of which Brian Epstein was directly involved).

I still don't see that it is any kind of a stretch that Warren was behind the first set of pins, and that the WAR in Elwar stands for Warren. Who else would have put the money up to mfr. them, anyway?

And why didn't they sell the little buttons in FM? Not enough profit. They were penny buttons-buttons made to sell gum in machines. The buttons were the incentive to pump your penny into the machine, the same way a slot machine does-the hope of a "payout".  If they just wanted to sell the little buttons, a better question is why didn't they just sell them for 5c each in a dump box in candy stores? Because they were manufactured to sell gum. That's why the ratio in the machines was one button for 30 gumballs! And if they were going to concentrate on direct button sales, it is much more profitable to sell a large, 39c color button.

Quote from: Jim Bertges on November 27, 2008, 02:59:36 AM
Or perhaps the Elwar name is a combination of the names of two partners, someone whose name starts with EL and James WARren.

I thought of that, too, but since there are people named Elwar, it seemed the simplest explanation.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 27, 2008, 04:30:42 AM
And why didn't they sell the little buttons in FM? Not enough profit.

Then what is warren's incentive to make the small buttons? What other gumball machine items did Warren make?

BTW I have nothing against Warren being the maker of the buttons, but somebody has to be the Devil's Advocate.

The flicker rings probably came out in 1963 or 1964.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3035/3062877561_acf92d3b9a_o.jpg)

Casper got his own show in 1963, and this is the display card for the rings.  I believe that was the first licensed gumball item.

There were 6 monster rings in 3 colors, and 2 Casper rings in 3 colors. Those proved the market.  The rings were made by Vari-Vue

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 27, 2008, 08:52:47 AM
Then what is warren's incentive to make the small buttons?

The incentive was money, using the name of a very popular kids' magazine. As far as the big buttons go, they were in the printing business already. It's not a far stretch to believe they could have made buttons, which are easy to make, don't cost much to manufacture, and sell for 39c- more than a single issue of the magazine they were promoting.

Considering a magazine today is what...$8.95 or something, would you spend $8.95 in today's dollars on a button?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 27, 2008, 08:52:47 AM
What other gumball machine items did Warren make?

They made similar tin buttons for Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In, which wasn't even a kid's show. What other gumball items did Romart manufacture?

More importantly,what doe it prove?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 27, 2008, 08:47:45 AM
I thought of that, too, but since there are people named Elwar, it seemed the simplest explanation.

I gotta ask- how many 'Elwars' have you known, heard of, or come up in a Google search?





(BTW, after searching the top 3 'baby names' search engines, Elwar did not come up on any of them...!)

These flicker rings were sold by Captain Company.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cMdbfkl3Rz4/SKAQZUaPfnI/AAAAAAAAC14/tFnBosfUdsg/s800/FM13monsterRINGS.jpg)

Besides the images show, there were some other styles made too. 

As noted on the Frankenstina Blog  (http://frankensteinia.blogspot.com/2008/08/frankenstein-monster-ring.html (http://frankensteinia.blogspot.com/2008/08/frankenstein-monster-ring.html))

"You could buy two issues of FM for 75 cents, and even have enough left over for some candy."

These rings were not made by Vari-Vue, they were made in Japan.  I'm not sure when the ring ad first appeared in FM, but I think it's likely that they didn't sell a lot of them through FM and they also hit the gum machine market.

I only have a couple of them.  The Frankenstein and one that isn't on the ad, the Shock Monster.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/309143065_d03fe0060c_o.jpg)

I believe these were commissioned by Warren and distributed by them. 

Anyone have these buttons?

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1336/533553213_f6bd688d5d_o.jpg)

Keep in mind, too, that the powers that be at Captain Company were basically "jobbers", which is why they sold war surplus, monkeys, venus flytraps, and incubators. There were alot of jobbers in the NE part of the country, and two that immediately came to mind (and you will recognize if you've been in vintage toys for any length of time) are the Eisensteins (aka Larry and Grace) and Sandra "robot" Kessler of PA. Both were families of jobbers, and specialized in old store stock for resale, and capitalized when collector prices started skyrocketing.

Alot of these type companies (like Captain Co)would run the ads before they even bought or manufactured the merchandise- which is why it usually took 2-3 months (or sometimes never) to get your stuff.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 09:44:59 AM
Anyone have these buttons?

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1336/533553213_f6bd688d5d_o.jpg)

I've had them many times, but never kept them. They are made of vacuform plastic, not tin, or paper/tin.


I think most of the merchandise Warren was hawking was "jobber" merchandise (similar to the China stuff flea marketeers sell today), junk they could buy by the box (like the flicker rings- unlicensed Made In Japan crap).

Bobby- also notice on the same page you pictured the "photo stamps". Now tell me Warren wasn't milking their printing abilities to manufacture cheap crap they could make a buck on!

Speaking of which, here is one of the rarest monster collectibles you will see from 1962...Monster Bob book matches...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/backlotcharlie/matches.jpg)

Yes, they are real, and yes, they were ordered off an ad similar to the photo stamps!

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 27, 2008, 09:31:55 AM

I gotta ask- how many 'Elwars' have you known, heard of, or come up in a Google search?

Alice Elwar
Clara Elwar
George Elwar
Isabella Elwar
Joseph Elwar
Osburn Elwar
Stanley Elwar
Sydney Elwar
Catharine Elwar
Baptiste Elwar
Elizabeth Elwar
Henry Elwar
Ellen Elwar
Emma Elwar
Louis Elwar
Mary Elwar
Anna Elwar
Hedvige Elwar
Jacobum Elwar
Petrus Elwar

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 27, 2008, 09:28:40 AM
It's not a far stretch to believe they could have made buttons

Especially since they did. (The various fan club buttons, etc.) But I still have to wonder why set up a separate company just for these sets?

Tax purposes? A write off when the idea fails?

Or a way to involve estranged relatives Hedvige, Jacobum and Petrus Elwar into the family biz?  Sorry, I had to do that. ;D

I think we're pretty much at a dead end on whether or not Warren made these buttons. If anybody wants to contact JW and ask him about them, I'll send you his address and ph#.

Ah, yes...Petrus Elwar...that bastard still owes me money.  >:(

1st appearence of the the large marked-on-the-curl Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters:
Issue 95, which would make their production 1972.
large unmarked = 60s
small tin litho Elwar = 60s
large Elwar = 70s

In revisiting FM, there was a ton of neat crap in the Captain Company! I quit buying FM regularly at issue 68 and started up again at issue #120. I've obtained the fill in issues over the years but need to spend some free time really paging through them all (free time ~ Hah! that'll never happen). I know there were quite a few repeat articles.

Here's my button display:
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/actionplus/Picture123.jpg)
You are right, Richard.  There is some really neat stuff in those ads.  One of the coolest Captain Company items...the Werewolf Siren Ring!  Not sure if this is an actual werewolf siren ring or not, but it looks like one...
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/actionplus/Picture126.jpg)

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 27, 2008, 09:51:45 AM

I've had them many times, but never kept them. They are made of vacuform plastic, not tin, or paper/tin.

Ah, OK.  Thought those might be another clue.

QuoteI think most of the merchandise Warren was hawking was "jobber" merchandise (similar to the China stuff flea marketeers sell today), junk they could buy by the box (like the flicker rings- unlicensed Made In Japan crap).

Definitely so. 

QuoteBobby- also notice on the same page you pictured the "photo stamps". Now tell me Warren wasn't milking their printing abilities to manufacture cheap crap they could make a buck on!

Yep, whatever they could do to capitalize on the monster craze they started.  No reason to sit there and watch these other companies get all the monster kid money when they had the best access to monster kids of anyone.

QuoteSpeaking of which, here is one of the rarest monster collectibles you will see from 1962...Monster Bob book matches...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g107/backlotcharlie/matches.jpg)

Yes, they are real, and yes, they were ordered off an ad similar to the photo stamps!

Very cool!

Who made the monster photo printing kit?

Quote from: poseablemonster on November 27, 2008, 12:39:58 PM
One of the coolest Captain Company items...the Werewolf Siren Ring!  Not sure if this is an actual werewolf siren ring or not, but it looks like one...

Siren rings have been a staple of the toy ring world for years.  Made of vinyl, hard plastic, pot metal, stainless, etc.  There are a hundred variations, but that one sure looks like the one in the photo and might as well be..   very cool!

Bobby, I have some of those buttons and a counter display box for them. I'll try to post a photo tonight after we do our Thanksgiving stuff.

Quote from: The Phantom Creep on November 27, 2008, 02:01:12 PM
Bobby, I have some of those buttons and a counter display box for them. I'll try to post a photo tonight after we do our Thanksgiving stuff.

Great!  If you can manage a photo of the back of one, that might be helpful too.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 12:42:37 PM


Who made the monster photo printing kit?

Yankee Photo Products, Inc.

Thanks Bob.

From HH's thread....

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3009/3064130715_cb14881896_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/3064130733_9ac889e46c_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/3064130745_50ed81fb75_o.jpg)

I think this is pretty good evidence that Elwar = Warren.

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 09:10:55 PM
I think this is pretty good evidence that Elwar = Warren.

In what way?

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 27, 2008, 09:40:30 PM
In what way?

Same size, same materials, same date for starters.

Mike, given the information gathered in this thread, tell me why you believe Elwar and Warren aren't related businesses.

That's the hottest image of Lilly Munster I've ever seen.

Quote from: raycastile on November 27, 2008, 09:50:12 PM
That's the hottest image of Lilly Munster I've ever seen.

Yvonne DeCarlo was so sexy back then...

Quote from: poseablemonster on November 27, 2008, 09:59:16 PM
Yvonne DeCarlo was so sexy back then...

(http://www.boxofficeprophets.com/hyde/images/Jan05/yvonnedecarlo.jpg)

"nuff said"

At one Point, she was labeled, The Most beautiful Women in the World.  :)

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 09:47:41 PM
Mike, given the information gathered in this thread, tell me why you believe Elwar and Warren aren't related businesses.

I don't, but I haven't seen any evidence that they are, either.

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 27, 2008, 10:29:45 PM
I don't, but I haven't seen any evidence that they are, either.

OK.  I wouldn't send anyone to death row with the evidence we've seen, but I'd lay $20 that Warren and Elwar were related entities with at least some common ownership.  Hell, I'd lay $100 they were.

I'd send 'em to death row, run 'em through a wood chipper, then feed 'em to the fish.

AND I'd bet a hunnert bucks to boot.  ;D

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 27, 2008, 10:52:29 PM
Hell, I'd lay $100 they were.

I'll go about $36.50. If I get odds.

Ok. here is one of the "Mad Buttons". I can't find my counter display box right now.

These things are very fragile, the front is a very thin plastic and the back is a cardboard disc with a straight pin through the hole.

Here's the front
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/913/dsc02336sd1.jpg)


and here is the back
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1361/dsc02338ff7.jpg)


Notice that these were done by the great MARVIN GLASS, designer of tons of awesome stuff including KING ZOR, MR MACHINE, MOUSE TRAP, ROCK EM' SOCK EM' ROBOTS, Ideal's HAUNTED HOUSE and, drumroll please..... BIG FRANKIE!!!!!!!!!!

When I do finally run across the display box, I'll post it.

Absolutely BEAUTIFUL Shawn! I've never seen such detailed ,large pics of it...Really impressive! Is this from your childhood, or after the fact??

The great Glass indeed. Had to bite my tongue to keep from stealing yer thunder, but glad I did, much more impressive with the pix. Dig that crazy Fishlove logo too. Anyone ever seen anything else they did?

Quote from: darkmonkeygod on November 29, 2008, 01:06:40 AM
Dig that crazy Fishlove logo too. Anyone ever seen anything else they did?

Here's a few of their products.
http://secretfunspot.blogspot.com/2006/08/party-gags-in-action_22.html (http://secretfunspot.blogspot.com/2006/08/party-gags-in-action_22.html)

Here are 2 more...

The Mummy has separated into 2 pieces and the plastic is a little warped.
I bought some of these and the box off ebay years ago.

(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9868/dsc02343vn9.jpg)

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9301/dsc02345yp9.jpg)

Those buttons are sweet.  I like the Mummy best.  This is the first I've heard of them, let alone seen them.

Hey did the mystery of the Elwar prototypes ever get solved?    Talking about the Big 3.5 inch metal buttons that DO NOT have the Elwar info on the curl.

or is this a mystery in progress?!?!?!?     I gotta know.   anybody?

YIKES 2008 was the year of the last post.    So in all that time, I managed to get some of the 1st run buttons and wanted to do a comparison along the lines of Richards exhaustive research.  (Thanks, Richard).

so here is the first comparison to the FMS album.   you can see, the artwork differs from all of the 3 Wolfmen, although very similar.
the best art I think is the Album art.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2367_zpszupqjbnd.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2367_zpszupqjbnd.jpg.html)

and here is the back of the first run buttons.  with the square holes on all of them.  I will post more tomorrow.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2364_zpsstcrqgcm.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2364_zpsstcrqgcm.jpg.html)

Awesome Hugo!

Can't wait to see more! :)

That non-Elwar Wolf Man looks pretty neat.

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 18, 2015, 10:51:29 PM
Can't wait to see more! :)

this pic is for YOU, Mike Scott.       notice the subtle differences in all of the creatures.     
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2360_zpsyxvpg4qw.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2360_zpsyxvpg4qw.jpg.html)

Quote from: michblk on November 18, 2015, 09:21:36 PM
Awesome Hugo!

Thanks.   Lucky Duck.

Fantastic!

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 19, 2015, 08:46:20 AM
this pic is for YOU, Mike Scott.

Thanks, Hugo! Boy, would I love to have one of those!!

These are really cool.
Does anyone know how many of these "1st run" buttons have been found or are in collections?

Quote from: ilikemonsters on November 19, 2015, 01:29:23 PM
These are really cool.
Does anyone know how many of these "1st run" buttons have been found or are in collections?

where is Richard?  He did so much research on these 1st run buttons.   He would know for sure just how rare they are.
anybody know if Richard is still on this site?  He posted all throughout this thread.

more pics coming

Quote from: ilikemonsters on November 19, 2015, 01:29:23 PM
These are really cool.
Does anyone know how many of these "1st run" buttons have been found or are in collections?

I'm curious about that too.

Here's pic of mine (which are all the more common variety) with some other stuff:

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/horrorhunter/MarxWeirdOhsElwarButtons_zpsrpp3pdzw.jpg)

I bought that Creature button when I was a kid and it must have been sometime in the '60s. Do we know for sure when the common versions like I have were first sold?

quote: I bought that Creature button when I was a kid and it must have been sometime in the '60s. Do we know for sure when the common versions like I have were first sold?

This thread had said, I think it was Richard, whom discovered the first ad for the Elwar marked buttons in issue 92 of FM, which would be 1970.

that seems a little late, now that you are saying 60's.   I might be wrong about the #92, but its somewhere here in this wonderful wonderful thread. 

speaking of wonderful, here is a nice set of buttons off eBay, they are 2 1/4 inches.    Ill post another pic with a bigger button.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2390_zpsjkqkmxvv.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2390_zpsjkqkmxvv.jpg.html)

here is the Old Elwar marked Frank, with a new Frank of previous picture, along with the artwork from FMS.   you can see they are all different.

I don't have the 1st run of Frankenstein, but actively looking to complete my set.    the smaller new button of Frank is absolutely lifted off of FM yearbook 1965 cover.   

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2383_zpsk4ze7y2a.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2383_zpsk4ze7y2a.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 19, 2015, 06:55:34 PM
speaking of wonderful, here is a nice set of buttons off eBay, they are 2 1/4 inches.

A nice ebay entrepreneur button set! The art is kinda from all over the place, though. Gogos Phantom (FM16), later Gogos Creature, "Big Frankie" box art, Hasbro Wolf Man and just a photo of The Mummy.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 19, 2015, 06:55:34 PM
quote: I bought that Creature button when I was a kid and it must have been sometime in the '60s. Do we know for sure when the common versions like I have were first sold?

This thread had said, I think it was Richard, whom discovered the first ad for the Elwar marked buttons in issue 92 of FM, which would be 1970.

that seems a little late, now that you are saying 60's.   I might be wrong about the #92, but its somewhere here in this wonderful wonderful thread.

Yes, I read that info earlier in the thread. When I get the time (a LOT of time) I'll go through my FMs and see if I can discover any earlier ads for them.

Regardless of this info, however, I bought my Creature button sometime in the mid '60s to the best of my recollection. It seems like it was on a blister card and the price was 39 cents. That would indicate that the common versions were sold in the '60s. I can't prove when I bought the button, but that's what I remember. Maybe the common ones were marketed in stores before they were sold through FM.

Quote from: horrorhunter on November 19, 2015, 10:32:35 PM
It seems like it was on a blister card and the price was 39 cents.

I would love to see a carded one!!!

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 19, 2015, 10:48:07 PM
I would love to see a carded one!!!

It would be awesome!

I bought one of these Monster Magic Action MOC sets pretty cheap off eBay a few years ago. I guess 39 cents was a popular price for this stuff in the '60s.  :laugh:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4129/5097273375_5ee731a8c0_z.jpg)

I guess the stuff that's plentiful are the things that turned up in warehouse finds through the years. If something was only sold in the '60s (even up to the '70s in some cases) it doesn't hit the market very often nowadays. Even the more common versions of those large Elwars seem a bit scarce, and blister carded ones must be genuinely rare.

Quote from: horrorhunter on November 19, 2015, 11:10:58 PM
I guess the stuff that's plentiful are the things that turned up in warehouse finds through the years.

When is there going to be a warehouse find of Hasbro Mystery Games? ;D

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 19, 2015, 11:22:23 PM
When is there going to be a warehouse find of Hasbro Mystery Games? ;D

I dream of such a thing, but manifesting that into real life ain't so easy. Still, every once in a while another piece of the puzzle drops into place.

I know Richard, who started this thread, has the 1st run mummy.   I am posting my pic showing the Elwar one and the FMS album art.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2363_zpsgofslxyi.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2363_zpsgofslxyi.jpg.html)

I wonder why they bothered to repaint them for the later buttons? I mean, they're just barely different!

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 20, 2015, 03:39:54 PM
I wonder why they bothered to repaint them for the later buttons? I mean, they're just barely different!

seems to me the 1st run buttons, although they look great, the art is kinda like the monster wallets, not perfect in the depiction, but still so cool, any kid would appreciate it.   The phantom opera wallet illustration/painting is a fine example as the werewolf/creature wallet too, they look just a little off.

So I think when the 1st run buttons sold quickly, something happened during production (see Richard's theories posted earlier)
they had a hit and decided to step up the artwork a little more.       Phantom Opera Elwar is a perfect example, compared to the 1st run, the Elwar version really nails Lon Chaney Sr.    see my pic here.     (Raymond, I got a phantom finally, just like yours!)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2388_zpsu3zejtci.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2388_zpsu3zejtci.jpg.html)

here is the dracula's for comparison.    Man that little Dracula is WAY TOO COOL, with it's ghastly pallet color choices and Bela's cat slit eyes.  look closer, closer, a little closer...
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2371_zpsaegj5dcb.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2371_zpsaegj5dcb.jpg.html)

drum roll..... big finale....

my current button collection.   I paid thru the roof for the 1st runs.    more than I should have but guys, I only go around once in this life. 

so happy to share pics.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2369_zpsy7sdfyrs.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2369_zpsy7sdfyrs.jpg.html)

Very curious to see a first run Frankenstein.


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Beautiful collection


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Outstanding collection! Only a Frankenstein away from perfection!

Very cool! Great pieces, always loved the artwork on these gems!!

Great work Hugo! Looking good!

Thanks guys!   I feel really lucky!    Richard, whom started this thread would really enjoy these pics.

I pm'd him, but no response.   If anybody knows him well, send him a link or something.   His posts were exhaustive in research and his interest seemed very very high. 

If it wasn't for posts, I would have missed the opportunity to buy those buttons.     

Absolutely STUNNING collection you have there, Hugo! Still need a Creature myself to complete my set...someday. Freddie Poe beat me to the last one i saw at a Chiller Expo a couple of years ago!

Gasport, thanks for the comps.      Do you have 1st run buttons too?   Creech button pops up every now and then on eBay.    Are you looking for mint or just a Creech in good condition?   I only ask because sometimes buttons show up with issues, but are still very presentable.

I think with the holiday coming up, a lot more buttons will show up.    Man I would KILL for a 1st run Frank.  I don't believe I have ever seen one in the 3.5 version.    anybody got a picture of Big Frank?   

MIKE SCOTT, this picture is for your files.    and of course anybody else who wants a pic.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2395_zpssioxdiks.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2395_zpssioxdiks.jpg.html)

Beauty! Thanks!

my first run buttons feel dirty on the surface, any ideas on how to clean them up?   windex?   soap and water?   I haven't tried anything yet.

its plastic, right?   any help appreciated.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg.html)

Those really are fun to see all together like that, Hugo. Congratulations and thank you for all the great comparison photos.

What's the story with the modern small ones?

those little guys on the bottom row, are right off eBay and he is selling them as a set.

I have already ordered 2 more sets at 12.00 a set, free shipping.     They are new, and I think they might be custom?   He said he could make me any kind of button if I wanted.

there is no copy on the curl, no markings.   The Dracula is the best one by far.   so sinister so cool.

now back to the giant Elwar buttons, I NEED A FRANKENSTEIN 1st run, or at least a picture of one.     


Yup, I made that homemade display you see there and it sits on top of my bedroom dresser.    I can see it as I fall asleep and also in the middle of the night, I can see the bright patch of yellow where a 1st run Frank should be.

hoping for the best, I have never seen 1st run buttons anywhere except Raymond's Phantom, and the Dracula one from that goofy Auction House.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 23, 2015, 09:20:08 AM
now back to the giant Elwar buttons, I NEED A FRANKENSTEIN 1st run, or at least a picture of one.     

Which begs the question, where did you get your 1st run buttons? Auctions, yard sales, good connections in the collector's market? And how long did it take you to collect the 5 you have?

I have a magic lamp with a Genie inside.

So THEY are out there.   I ran across this old Hakes auction featuring 2 of the 1st run buttons, the rare creature and the rare Wolfman.

wow.    and sold for pennies!!!!

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=183&ItemNo=27340 (http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=183&ItemNo=27340)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 24, 2015, 01:08:45 PM
I ran across this old Hakes auction featuring 2 of the 1st run buttons, the rare creature and the rare Wolfman.

Somebody got a good deal!

yes, that was in 2005!   Mike Scott, did you get my personal message?

I also hope somebody has a picture of the 1st run Frankenstein.   I am really curious as to what it looks like.

Before my collection, this thread showed off Raymond's Phantom button and Richard's Mummy button, both 1st run.

and then the Hakes showed us the 2 Dracula's via Richard's research.     And that most recent link has Creature and Wolfman 1st runs.

The only one never pictured was Frankenstein.     Unless its on FJA's shirt in that black and white picture.   I gotta go check now.

FJA only has Creature, Dracula 2 hands, and Creature, all first run.    And that dracula club button he has on!!    There was a recent auction just this year, just this month for that Dracula CLUB button featured on FJA's shirt.   

Holy bat kittens, look how much it went for !!!      Somebody here buy it?

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=216&ItemNo=144732 (http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=216&ItemNo=144732)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 24, 2015, 07:06:59 PM
Holy bat kittens, look how much it went for !!!      Somebody here buy it?

Damn, but that's a lot of money for a button!!  A real Lugpsi fan there!

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 24, 2015, 06:59:57 PM
Mike Scott, did you get my personal message?

I did.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 24, 2015, 06:59:57 PM
I also hope somebody has a picture of the 1st run Frankenstein.

Well, you know it's gonna look like the small buttons, with the color from the Vending card.

BTW Do you have a set of the small Elwar buttons?

did the vending card show full color for those buttons?

as far as the ownership of Elwar buttons, these are mine.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg.html)

i misread your message.

no i don't have the small elwar buttons, but i will get a Frankenstein button until I get the BIG ONE, 1st run.


which may be never.

here is a link to that vending machine card for the small buttons.   Man look how much that went for!
http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=183&ItemNo=27339 (http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=183&ItemNo=27339)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 25, 2015, 09:53:07 AM
here is a link to that vending machine card for the small buttons.   Man look how much that went for!

Of course, that was for the card and the buttons, although that still makes it about $200 for the card! They probably paid a premium to get the whole mess in one lot.

How can you tell the reproduction cards from the ORIGINAL vending card?   is there a date?   Or a way to tell with a magnifying glass or Loop?

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 25, 2015, 11:38:59 AM
How can you tell the reproduction cards from the ORIGINAL vending card?   is there a date?   Or a way to tell with a magnifying glass or Loop?

Any repros are just scanned from an original (or a pic off the net). In person you can tell the difference between old card stock and new, unless the old was extremely well taken care of, or somebody went to way too much trouble to fake a new one to make it look old.

If you're buying online, know your sellers rep, ask lots of questions and get a guarantee. (Unless you can afford to lose the money.)

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 25, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
Any repros are just scanned from an original (or a pic off the net). In person you can tell the difference between old card stock and new, unless the old was extremely well taken care of, or somebody went to way too much trouble to fake a new one to make it look old.

If you're buying online, know your sellers rep, ask lots of questions and get a guarantee. (Unless you can afford the money.)

I have one of the repro display cards that was thrown in with a couple of the original small Elwar buttons in an eBay auction. The card stock is thin. Were the original cards on thicker stock? I have an original Monster Heads (like Pop-Tops, by Henal) display card and it's VERY thick.

Since the original cards are fairly expensive, I'm satisfied with the repro. These things are very easy to copy, and the copies display just like a real one. Who knows how many people buy vending machine display cards thinking they are original when, in fact, they are buying copies. We know evilBay is full of sellers who don't shoot straight.

Quote from: horrorhunter on November 25, 2015, 03:45:11 PM
Were the original cards on thicker stock?

Don't know, but I assume all the repros are, 'cause they have to go through a desktop printer. So if you have a thick one, it's a good bet it's the real thing.

Wade A. Minut.    I just looked at my buttons with a printer's loop and you can see the benday dots used in the printing.

wouldn't the real vending card also show the printing dots under magnifying loop?    Wouldn't that be the way to distinguish fake from real?

anybody?

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 25, 2015, 06:26:56 PM
Wouldn't the real vending card also show the printing dots under magnifying loop?    Wouldn't that be the way to distinguish fake from real?

There ya go! Forgot about those little things! (Well, their so small!)

LOL.  they are small.   like tiny little dots.

Since the original cards are fairly expensive, I'm satisfied with the repro. These things are very easy to copy, and the copies display just like a real one. Who knows how many people buy vending machine display cards thinking they are original when, in fact, they are buying copies. We know evilBay is full of sellers who don't shoot straight.
[/quote]

horror hunter, can you see if your repro of the vending card, or anybody whom owns one, has the benday printing dots on it.

I would appreciate it.    Also if anybody has a pic of the 1st issue Big Frankenstein button.   I have scoured the internet to no success.

I too have been tirelessly searching for a photo of a first run Frank, but to no avail...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Zman, glad to know I am not alone in my search.    putting my feelers out there for one of those 1st run Franks.   

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 28, 2015, 09:35:27 AM
Since the original cards are fairly expensive, I'm satisfied with the repro. These things are very easy to copy, and the copies display just like a real one. Who knows how many people buy vending machine display cards thinking they are original when, in fact, they are buying copies. We know evilBay is full of sellers who don't shoot straight.


horror hunter, can you see if your repro of the vending card, or anybody whom owns one, has the benday printing dots on it.

I would appreciate it.    Also if anybody has a pic of the 1st issue Big Frankenstein button.   I have scoured the internet to no success.

I checked my repro card with a 8.7x magnifying glass, and I saw no Ben-Day dots.

Refresh everyone on Ben-Day dots, and what their presence would prove or disprove.

Ben-Day dots prove that the art was actually printed on a 4 color printing press.    not a photo copy.   Which means the Ben-Gay, I mean Ben-Day dot buttons were manufactured by a large company, probably Captain Company.   

In going through the later FM's, and Richard (where are you dude?) found the first Elwar 3.5 button ad in issue 95, 1972.

I found it in issue 99, 1974 and jumping ahead, in issue 109!   So they had a lot of them, thats for sure.      I was reading FM every month and never noticed that wonderful ad.   
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2436_zpsnmkweyzx.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2436_zpsnmkweyzx.jpg.html)

I guess nobody ever found the ad for the 1st run buttons, huh?         I don't have the earlier FMs, but I went thru the 1965 FearBook and subsequent issues.       

I believe this thread summed up that Forry is wearing those buttons and that the picture is from 1963?    Anybody have any 1963 thru 1964 FM's to check for that elusive 1st run ad?

this pic is the ad from FM issue 109.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2428_zpst2btohkx.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2428_zpst2btohkx.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 10:49:18 AM
Ben-Day dots prove that the art was actually printed on a 4 color printing press.    not a photo copy.

But, wouldn't a hi rez scan reproduce the dots?

My partner says YES to the hi res scan, but he also said you would get a moire pattern if you tried to print that scan on a 4 color printing press.

to me it sounds like to much trouble to fake or lift an image with the dots, and then try and reprint, only to sell to such a small audience.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 11:00:41 AM
to me it sounds like to much trouble to fake or lift an image with the dots, and then try and reprint, only to sell to such a small audience.

The only reprints I see are probably made on a desktop printer to go with a set of buttons as a bonus.

Do you have any 63 or 64 FM's to search thru?    I am headed down to storage later to check my issues.

I think if we are going to find any evidence of the 1st run buttons, its gonna be in Famous Monsters of Filmland.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 11:17:25 AM
Do you have any 63 or 64 FM's to search thru?   

I've got them on my hard drive. Much easier than dragging out boxes and leafing through each copy. I'll look through them.

Wade A. Minut.   YOU have them on disc, page by page?!?!?    This is fantastic!     Anybody else want to join in the search, please do.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 11:58:30 AM
YOU have them on disc, page by page?!?!?   

Somebody scanned them and put them on the net. It's only the first 50 and there are a few missing. There may be more issues of FM. I have several other '60s monster mag titles (complete and partial runs), too. If you want to search for them, use the mag title and "download".

Where on the internet?   and they did all the back pages with the Ads?

link here if you could so I can help in the search.   I am thinking we only have to go thru 63 and 64.   maybe up to 65

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 12:53:03 PM
Where on the internet?   and they did all the back pages with the Ads?

Yeah, every page. I don't have any links. Just search for the mag title and add the word "download".

I looked through issues 30-50 and no button ads. I'll search 1-29, but I don't expect to find anything.

Looked through the 20's and that went back to 1962 and no buttons.

I found the first ad for FMS album in 29.     also found first ad for Frankenstein speaker in #31 and #32.    and then the Frankenstein speaker disappears from the ongoing future issues.

no buttons.   what the heck.

maybe when the buttons were first offered in 95, could they have possibly sent out first run buttons to just get rid of old stock?

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 06:03:49 PM
maybe when the buttons were first offered in 95, could they have possibly sent out first run buttons to just get rid of old stock?

I don't think we'll ever know the full story behind those early Elwar buttons.

The answer is in the pages of FM.     I just know it.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 29, 2015, 09:51:53 PM
The answer is in the pages of FM.     I just know it.

I just don't remember seeing anything about the buttons, except the adds in the 1970s issues. Hope I'm wrong!

I think you are right.   I am gonna do some hit and miss on looking thru the FM's that I keep in my bedroom.       I did win that auction last night so now I got 3 wonderful dups and the original vending machine for the little Elwars.   I will post when I get them!!   

The search and the mystery continues.   

Congrats.  That was a steal...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

were you bidding on that one as well?   

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 29, 2015, 03:07:56 PM
Looked through the 20's and that went back to 1962 and no buttons.

I don't have all of the twenties issues, but I did look thru #26, #29 and #30, no button ads.       

I don't have the other of the twenties.      Ill check the higher numbers tomorrow.

back to the ben-day dots for a comparison.    Phantom (binder) is 4 color printed with dots.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2455_zps3wift22c.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2455_zps3wift22c.jpg.html)
Mummy is a photocopy and it shows.   No sharpness at all in the mummy face, no ben-day dots, just a blur.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2451_zpsnr1qgiqg.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2451_zpsnr1qgiqg.jpg.html)

I went thru a ton of magazines last evening, #30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and then a few of the Monster Worlds that I own.   continuing on thru the 80's and upwards was futile.

It blows my mind that in that picture, the 2nd and 3rd FM paperbacks, 1964, 1965 are shown in the pic with the 1st run buttons and yet no ADS at all for the monster buttons until FM 95!   

A theory could be, FJA is wearing them to promote them and maybe possibly giving them away at the signing.

He runs into legal issues, due to no copyright info.     So button manufacturing halts. 

But then doesn't begin until the 1970's?   Doesn't make sense.

ALSO does anybody know if the Dracula Fan Club button appeared ANYWHERE in FM as a premium?     Maybe that one too was offered the same time as the 1st run buttons.      I wonder if that kid is any one of us?  He would know for sure if just off the picture grid there perhaps was an entire table with those 1st run buttons, and the Dracula Fan Club button, also for sale.

OH MAN.... my mind hurts.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/scan0002-3_zpsoy5ebnp4.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/scan0002-3_zpsoy5ebnp4.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 01, 2015, 10:50:16 AM
ALSO does anybody know if the Dracula Fan Club button appeared ANYWHERE in FM as a premium?   

It was probably given away by the Dracula Fan Club, whoever they were.

If Forry is wearing it, I just bet it was produced by Captain Company.

I wonder if that old Hakes auction has any publishing info on it?   1700 for that Drac fan club button, or to be more precise, The Bela Lugosi Fan Club button.

Now I wish I had seen that auction.        NOBODY here won that auction?    Surely this is the most prominent website devoted to Monster Fans like us.   Why could I dare compare that this site is the FM of fan monster sites?     I have only been a member for a short time but I feel like this site is
the best of the best.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 01, 2015, 11:03:45 AM
If Forry is wearing it, I just bet it was produced by Captain Company.

The never sold them.

Quote from: Mike Scott on November 20, 2015, 07:35:45 PMOutstanding collection! Only a Frankenstein away from perfection!

Agreed!

8)

My only other hope is to look thru the other monster magazines from that time.    Surely they offered up ephemera like Captain Company.

maybe the button ad is somewhere in those publications.

By request.

1958 FM fan club kt.

Button
(http://imageshack.com/a/img907/891/EtC3V5.jpg)

Card
(http://imageshack.com/a/img907/8804/lsVbnv.jpg)

Certificate
(http://imageshack.com/a/img907/623/TqEXYz.jpg)

Oh Wow.   That is pretty cool and I assume that is all your's from your childhood?    I think I see your name on that last certificate.

Nice very nice.

How about a shot of your current monster button Collection, if you don't mind?

thanks for showing the Vice Pres button.   While looking for the 1st run Elwars, I ran across an Ad for the Be a Vice President in an issue of FM.

way to score!

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 02, 2015, 07:16:00 PM
That is pretty cool and I assume that is all your's from your childhood?

None of that is mine. I do have a button, but this one is just a pic from my files. The buttons and the cards are very scares. There's only one known copy of the Cert. It sold for $400 on ebay a few years ago.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 02, 2015, 07:16:00 PM
How about a shot of your current monster button Collection, if you don't mind?

I really don't have a vintage button collection. Just some Creature buttons (Elwars and a Batty Button) and the two FM club buttons. The only other buttons I have are recent custom made ones, like the old UMA buttons.

Some b/w photos from the Warren archives.

Art for the original 3.5" buttons. Instructions are to reduce the art to 7/8" for making the small Elwar buttons. A clue that would indicate that Warren is Elwar.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img908/7374/Kiztr9.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7952/sOIp9j.jpg)

Photo of a (proposed?) carded large Elwar button.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 02, 2015, 11:27:38 PM
Some b/w photos from the Warren archives.

Art for the original 3.5" buttons. Instructions are to reduce the art to 7/8" for making the small Elwar buttons. A clue that would indicate that Warren is Elwar.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img908/7374/Kiztr9.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7952/sOIp9j.jpg)

Photo of a (proposed?) carded large Elwar button.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

Dracular?

JP

I am at work and your photos aren't showing up here.     some kind of security thing our company uses.

SO that being said, I can't wait to get home and see these pics!    very excited to see the button art and carded art.

I will post the buttons that are coming in the mail.   nothing mind boggling but never the less.

Others should post their button collections, be interesting to see what variety are out there from the good ol days.

question about two things.    What are the Warren Archives and where can I access them?


also, there was a definitive book on vintage monster collecting.... but I am drawing a blank on the name, somebody's collection and his name is part of the title....

help anybody?    I am hoping the buttons and such other stuff is in there.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 10:01:18 AM
very excited to see the button art and carded art.

It would be more exciting in color, but . . .

The card art isn't much. It just says "Monster Series' with some drippy blood.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 03, 2015, 01:38:05 PM
It would be more exciting in color, but . . .

The card art isn't much. It just says "Monster Series' with some drippy blood.

And Dracular. First time I ever saw an R added to his name.

JP

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 01:30:37 PM
What are the Warren Archives and where can I access them?

Well, every newspaper, or magazine has/had their archive. All the Warren company stuff was sold off, years ago and these were some photos that turned up on ebay.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 01:30:37 PM
also, there was a definitive book on vintage monster collecting.... somebody's collection and his name is part of the title....

You're probably thinking about Kirk Hammett, from Metallica. The book was his collection. Maybe not definitive, but certainly amazing!

THAT'S IT!  TOO MUCH HORROR BUSINESS!       

I hope some pins are in there.      shirley he collected that stuff too!     

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 02:00:51 PM
shirley he collected that stuff too!   

He did and don't call him . . well, you know the joke.

Gathering Horror is the be-all end-all tome on all things Warren Publishing.

Here's a review: http://www.zomboscloset.com/zombos_closet_of_horror_b/2011/02/gathering-horror.html (http://www.zomboscloset.com/zombos_closet_of_horror_b/2011/02/gathering-horror.html)

(http://www.zomboscloset.com/.a/6a00d83451d04569e2014e860e6566970d-800wi)

As extensive as it is, there isn't much info available on Warren merchandise compared to the info on the mags. It's OOP and pricey. Only 300 copies were printed.

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 03, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
Gathering Horror is the be-all end-all tome on all things Warren Publishing.

I forgot to look in there. I'll have to drag out my copy, unless you're saying there nothing we don't already know about the Elwars.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 03, 2015, 02:30:04 PM
I forgot to look in there. I'll have to drag out my copy, unless you're saying there nothing we don't already know about the Elwars.

I haven't checked yet because I haven't gotten around to dragging mine out.  ;D

That book is one of the very few places that might have some applicable info.

Just looked. The only Elwar buttons mentioned are the large 1973 ones. I think they were only concerned with stuff sold through the mags.

Darn it, I was hoping it would be in  of the Warren publications.     I do have a pertinent question tho, on the vendor art, the monsters are in full color.   so why b & w buttons when the card is 4 color?


going to have to get me one of those books.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 03:09:08 PM
so why b & w buttons when the card is 4 color?

'Cause it's cheaper.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 02, 2015, 11:27:38 PM
Some b/w photos from the Warren archives.

Art for the original 3.5" buttons. Instructions are to reduce the art to 7/8" for making the small Elwar buttons. A clue that would indicate that Warren is Elwar.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img908/7374/Kiztr9.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img903/7952/sOIp9j.jpg)

Photo of a (proposed?) carded large Elwar button.

OH MY GOD-NESS!  you SOLVED IT.  That is the proof of all proofs.     Now if we only knew where they were sold!!!!    WOW, I LOVE THE CARDED.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

OH MY GOD-NESS!  you SOLVED IT.  That is the proof of all proofs.     Now if we only knew where they were sold!!!!    WOW, I LOVE THE CARDED.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 07:29:37 PM
OH MY GOD-NESS!  you SOLVED IT.

What did I solve?

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2015, 07:29:37 PM
WOW, I LOVE THE CARDED.

I can't say if that carded button was ever sold. Could just be a mock-up?

YOU solved the mystery of the 1st run buttons.    NOW we know for sure Captain Company Warren Publishing produced those big buttons, and someone in this thread remembered the carded version being sold.

Those Wonderful pics you dug up is the rock bottom proof.     Nobody was quite sure how they got on FJA's shirt.       Thanks.    It could be he sold those at conventions only etc.... and then Universal said to by the rights, and they did and redid them better.    Why they waited to sell them until 1970's, we'll never know.

Is Warren still alive?

(I am at work and cannot see the pics again, they show up at home.

I am going to have to copy them from home and send to my work email.     They will make a great background on my computer screen.)

Now to find the elusive Frankenstein!!!!!

Quote
NOW we know for sure Captain Company Warren Publishing produced those big buttons, and someone in this thread remembered the carded version being sold.

Don't close the book, yet! There's still a lot of unanswered questions. Could you post a link to the card guy's post? I wanted to (re)read what he said.

Quote
Is Warren still alive?

He is, but he's not an easy guy to get a hold of, unless you're a friend.


(My) Unanswered (rhetorical) questions:

If Warren is ELWAR, why are the small b/w buttons the only Warren items ever sold in GB machines?

Why does the GB card use the words "Famous Monsters", but not the FM logo?

I'll probably think of others.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 04, 2015, 03:47:49 PM
Don't close the book, yet! There's still a lot of unanswered questions. Could you post a link to the card guy's post? I wanted to (re)read what he said.

I think I'm the "card guy" you guys are referring to. Here's a link to my post: http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.msg474851#msg474851 (http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.msg474851#msg474851)

So, anyway, I'm pretty sure I bought my large Creature button on a blister card for 39 cents back in the mid '60s, probably at a Kresge, Woolworth, or similar place that sold toys. That's a hazy kid memory, and it offers no concrete proof.

I know the book isn't closed on this, but from all I've seen over the years I think the 3 1/2" large pinbacks are by Warren, and Elwar was a subsidiary of Warren in much the same way that Linemar and ELM (Empire Louis Marx) were lesser parts of Marx.

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 04, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
Here's a link to my post:

Good lord, I must be losin' my mind! Can't even remember a post from 2 wks ago! I though it was gonna be one of the ones from 2008!

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 04, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
I'm pretty sure I bought my large Creature button on a blister card for 39 cents . .

Or maybe just a card with no blister. Does the above photo ring any bells?

HorrorHunter, yes  you are the kid who bought the carded version.

wow, Kresge.    that makes sense.  Woolworths too.   I wonder why they didn't sell them thru the magazines?    Maybe easier to move such a fabulous big button for people to see it in real life, like the Monster Kits in real life.

Its one thing to see a black and white ad of Phantom Kit, but I remember my child hood eyes first look at the sealed model kit at the corner store.

The color blew my little mind away, oh the ghastly green face.    Anyway, my point is the marketing strategy seems to me to be, the button will sell like hotcakes.   Kids won't be able to resist the color and size when they see it at the Kresge, Woolworths, etc.

My corner store didn't carry too much in the way of Monsters, we were lucky to get the Model Kits right down the street.   
Scotties was a Mom and Pop corner store much like today.    Mostly candy that was laid out like a deli behind glass, Soda pop in bottles,and I guess some hardware stuff and that middle isle stacked high with all the model kits.

but I digress.       Ill bet those big buttons sold just like HorrorHunter remembered.          And then pulled because of no copyright on the curl.

I dream of Frankenstein Big Button.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 04, 2015, 05:26:56 PM
Good lord, I must be losin' my mind! Can't even remember a post from 2 wks ago! I though it was gonna be one of the ones from 2008!

Or maybe just a card with no blister. Does the above photo ring any bells?

It does seem like it was a blister card similar to this:

(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

But, like I stated, the memory of buying it is through that Monsterkid haze we are all too familiar with.

And it wasn't a "first run" Creature button. It was the common one. Which is why I was saying they were sold in the '60s.. maybe not through the mags till early '70s, but I bought it in the store in the mid '60s. I can't figure out why they weren't sold through the mags earlier, because Jim Warren was all about hawking the goods through Captain Company. Strange that.

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 04, 2015, 09:40:17 PM
And it wasn't a "first run" Creature button. It was the common one.

Do you still have the button and know that it was the one you bought then? (Just wondering if there is any "haze" involved.)

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 04, 2015, 09:54:28 PM
Do you still have the button and know that it was the one you bought then? (Just wondering if there is any "haze" involved.)

Here's a picture of my big Elwars (again):

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/horrorhunter/MarxWeirdOhsElwarButtons_zpsrpp3pdzw.jpg)

All 6 are clearly the more common type. The other five I picked up off eBay a couple of years ago, but that Creature button is the one I got as a kid in the mid '60s. There's nothing hazy about the button, or roughly when I got it. The memory is a little unclear about the exact year and what the packaging looked like, and the exact store it was purchased from, but I'm pretty sure it was on a blister card and it was 39 cents and it was from a store like Kresge or Woolworth. I know it wasn't bought as late as the '70s because I wasn't buying the monster stuff then except for comics and mags (I was into Hot Wheels and other types of toys by that time). It had to have been purchased in the mid '60s, no later than '67, and probably around '65.

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 03, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
He did and don't call him . . well, you know the joke.

Are the 1st run pins in his book?   It would be great to see the big Frank in full color.

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 05, 2015, 01:14:00 AM
Here's a picture of my big Elwars (again):

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/horrorhunter/MarxWeirdOhsElwarButtons_zpsrpp3pdzw.jpg)

All 6 are clearly the more common type. The other five I picked up off eBay a couple of years ago, but that Creature button is the one I got as a kid in the mid '60s. There's nothing hazy about the button, or roughly when I got it. The memory is a little unclear about the exact year and what the packaging looked like, and the exact store it was purchased from, but I'm pretty sure it was on a blister card and it was 39 cents and it was from a store like Kresge or Woolworth. I know it wasn't bought as late as the '70s because I wasn't buying the monster stuff then except for comics and mags (I was into Hot Wheels and other types of toys by that time). It had to have been purchased in the mid '60s, no later than '67, and probably around '65.

I personally don't mind seeing you picture again and again.   its like horror eye candy for me.     

I agree with you that your Creech button was bought around the time you say.
that fits in with the theory that 1st runs were also sold, albeit earlier, and then pulled because of the lack of info on the curl and copyright issues.
Then redone with proper permission etc. and beefed up Art.

continuously being made and sold in stores.

Then they find...
in the warehouse in the back...
hidden somewheres...
A huge box of the buttons they made from the 1960's and Warren says "Boys, lets get those babies in the FM ads".     

( was into Hot Wheels when they first appeared and still have a nice little minty collection)

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 05, 2015, 01:14:00 AM
The other five I picked up off eBay a couple of years ago, but that Creature button is the one I got as a kid in the mid '60s.

Thanks! Just wanted a confirmation. :)

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 05, 2015, 09:23:47 AM
Are the 1st run pins in his book?

I don't have the book and don't know if he has those, but you know he's got monster buttons of some kind.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 05, 2015, 09:39:25 AM
Then they find... in the warehouse in the back... hidden somewheres...
A huge box of the buttons they made from the 1960's and Warren says "Boys, lets get those babies in the FM ads".     

That's certainly possible.

Quote from: Gasport on November 21, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
Absolutely STUNNING collection you have there, Hugo! Still need a Creature myself to complete my set...someday. Freddie Poe beat me to the last one i saw at a Chiller Expo a couple of years ago!

Do you mean a 1st run creature?    or the Elwar one?   Elwar Big buttons show up all the time on eBay.

Hooray.   the vendor card showed up today in the mail along with the extra buttons, the Frankenstein is a keeper.   The mummy looks good but has lost its shine in front.   Creeech has some discoloration going on along with a little lifting of plastic coating in that area.    Def displayable and I will say so when I relist on eBay.       I really wanted the Frank button and the Artwork.     The art work itself does have the ben-day dots on the faces.    The bold red background and type are flat.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2507_zpssnbmgspg.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2507_zpssnbmgspg.jpg.html)

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 05, 2015, 01:14:00 AM
Here's a picture of my big Elwars (again):

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/horrorhunter/MarxWeirdOhsElwarButtons_zpsrpp3pdzw.jpg)

All 6 are clearly the more common type. The other five I picked up off eBay a couple of years ago, but that Creature button is the one I got as a kid in the mid '60s. There's nothing hazy about the button, or roughly when I got it. The memory is a little unclear about the exact year and what the packaging looked like, and the exact store it was purchased from, but I'm pretty sure it was on a blister card and it was 39 cents and it was from a store like Kresge or Woolworth. I know it wasn't bought as late as the '70s because I wasn't buying the monster stuff then except for comics and mags (I was into Hot Wheels and other types of toys by that time). It had to have been purchased in the mid '60s, no later than '67, and probably around '65.

HorrorHunter, I just saw you have the Batty Buttons that I just started collecting, sitting right there above the Elwars!    Nice.   you wouldn't have an Extra Frankenstien Ain't I cute button by any chance?

Got a proper display case for my buttons.  finally.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_4405_zps9bbvv5ny.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_4405_zps9bbvv5ny.jpg.html)

Also got these 2 very special button.   The seller remembers buying them down the street when he was just a little kid.

He is getting ready to move to Florida and retire so he is thinning out his collection.     I am super stoked that he sold them to me.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_4440_zpsmyqkesve.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_4440_zpsmyqkesve.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 24, 2016, 08:40:42 AM
Also got these 2 very special button. 

I don't recall seeing these, before! Do they look old (any rust)? Are they marked, at all? What size are they?

the buttons are 2 inchers.   here is a video of my unwrapping them and I am able to read the curl on Frankenstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8r0Tsqw9E&t=1s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8r0Tsqw9E&t=1s)

also here is a close up of the back of them.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/s-l1600-3_zpsk8v9xkzw.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/s-l1600-3_zpsk8v9xkzw.jpg.html)

here is the old auction I missed where I first saw these cool big buttons.   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MONSTER-PIN-BACK-BUTTONS-4-/152270361277?hash=item23740552bd%3Ag%3AR0YAAOSwCGVX96J8&nma=true&si=jaFjKqIViyD9TC7uj2TXw8G8sEk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MONSTER-PIN-BACK-BUTTONS-4-/152270361277?hash=item23740552bd%3Ag%3AR0YAAOSwCGVX96J8&nma=true&si=jaFjKqIViyD9TC7uj2TXw8G8sEk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

Cool! You got a set of the small Elwar buttons!

Like those 2" buttons! The look almost new on the front.

LOL its 2 and 1/4 big.

every inch counts.   or every quarter inch counts.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 25, 2016, 07:42:44 PM
LOL its 2 and 1/4 big.

I was rounding down to the nearest inch.  ;D

check out this auction with its original famous monsters fan club button.   oh and that gnarly monster certificate.   of course I can't afford it but it would be very cool to own.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Famous-Monsters-Fan-Club-Pack-1962-4-Pieces-RARE-/311746361163?hash=item489587f74b:g:MzgAAOSwiDFYNI~l (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Famous-Monsters-Fan-Club-Pack-1962-4-Pieces-RARE-/311746361163?hash=item489587f74b:g:MzgAAOSwiDFYNI~l)

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 26, 2016, 11:34:23 AM
oh and that gnarly monster certificate.   

Wow! Another one turns up! And with the cover letter! I've never seen one of those! To bad he didn't have the card to complete the package. Thanks for the link!

I straightened out the cover letter, in case anyone wants to print it. I've got the certificate, too, in case you need it.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/6988/M03FL9.jpg)

Do you think he will lower the price?  That is quadruple LOL of what I would be willing to pay.

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 26, 2016, 04:06:57 PM
Do you think he will lower the price? 

One of those certificates sold a couple of years ago. I don't remember the price, but it was a lot! Way up in the hundreds, at least!. He might lower it, after the third time it doesn't sell, assuming that happens. Rare stuff!

I am including in this thread because Ferry ripped off the big creature button art.    no info on curl, a nice 2 incher, 2 piece construction.  mint. 

The UMA buttons are a whopping 3 inches, curl date 2005, so already over ten years old... minty mint.   The photos on those 2 buttons are super clear in their glorious b & w detail.

any INFO who made the UMA buttons?    NO benday dots on either of those 3 buttons.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_4511_zpspgvfljb1.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_4511_zpspgvfljb1.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2016, 03:05:40 PM

any INFO who made the UMA buttons?   

UMA member Richard Olson (where are you, Richard?) made those UMA member buttons, as well as the UMA "Toy Tour" buttons.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4668/FfXi2P.jpg)

Both sides of the same 2 button package.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4619/IzAKU6.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3118/7vxDgn.jpg)

Most of my buttons:

(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13342898_1187220351309816_5015183431148533980_n.jpg?oh=665ef5cb59837124a950eb3a7c27e4d6&oe=58C54404)

Quote from: jerod on December 03, 2016, 07:32:37 PM
Most of my buttons:

Nice collection! Do you know the name of the set that most of them seem to belong to, assuming it has a name?

Here you go Mike. Give 'em a call.  ;)

(http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc385/jerod26/Odds%20n%20ends/IMG_0657_zps6jo9k8rp.jpg)

Say It With Buttons
1105 Front Street
Lisle Ill 60532
(312)268 7458

Quote from: jerod on December 03, 2016, 09:13:37 PM
Here you go Mike. Give 'em a call.  ;)

Dang! Somebody gave me that info already. My memory is really getting bad!

I called a few times. Just got a busy signal.

Hey Mike, I put that info out there as well in a video link.      as far as the say it with buttons curl.   it was nice to see the other buttons in that series, thank you Jerod, you got some amazing examples....   love the Lets make this perfectly clear Frankenstein button.   I would kill for that one.

Mike thanks for the trio of the UMA buttons.   I feel lucky to get the two that I have.

anybody have the Famous Monsters Ferry buttons?   so far I have the Creature, my friend Andrew has the Frank, and there is the crappy creature button with the awful big red fish lips.   

hugohernandez -  I got these as a teen at a Swap Meet in the mid-1980s. I have one or two duplicates if I remember right, but not the Frankenstein one. I'd have to track them down to be positive. They are cool for sure!

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 03, 2016, 09:48:01 PM
Hey Mike, I put that info out there as well in a video link.

I know and I forgot about it that quick!  :-[

Quote from: jerod on December 03, 2016, 09:55:19 PM
hugohernandez -  I got these as a teen at a Swap Meet in the mid-1980s. I have one or two duplicates if I remember right, but not the Frankenstein one. I'd have to track them down to be positive. They are cool for sure!

uh that Mad Man is pretty dang cool!   He reminds me of a sasquatch from a UFO, sometimes they are seen together.    He is crazy cool.   I sent you a PM.

MIKE, is that your personal UMA button collection and why aren't they being made anymore.    as in Richard where in the heck did you dissapear to?

in other words I bet there are others besides me whom would love some of those.     I like the full color ones too.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 04, 2016, 10:03:27 AM
MIKE, is that your personal UMA button collection and why aren't they being made anymore. 

Yes, those are mine. They were only made for a limited time. I kinda doubt anybody would be interested in making more?

I'm sending you a B/W Creature, Mummy, IM button, to complete your set. I had 2 of them.

The color ones were premiums for the 3 traveling classic monster toy exhibits that the guys put together.

Thanks to Jerod and Mike and other wonderful button peoples.    my button collection is all grown up.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_4586_zpsu74bblm6.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_4586_zpsu74bblm6.jpg.html)

Great collection, but where are your large Elwar buttons?

Really diggin' that "Say It With Buttons" set!

here they are, they got their own display case.   
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y304/hugodez1957/IMG_4517_zps7iogvwzt.jpg) (http://s1024.photobucket.com/user/hugodez1957/media/IMG_4517_zps7iogvwzt.jpg.html)

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 14, 2016, 09:17:05 AM
here they are, they got their own display case.   

OH YEAH, NOW I REMEMBER!

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 14, 2016, 09:17:05 AMhere they are, they got their own display case.

Very cool!

8)

Lovin' on that button set.

JP

Guess this is the buttons thread, so here's one for you.

THE MONSTER TIMES fan club button (2"). Kit also came with a membership card and certificate.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/7851/CDS0xC.jpg)

Wow that Monster Times button is crazy cool.    I use to buy that magazine, but was put off by its newspaper format and the non glossy cover.

what an odd concept but none the less, unique.   

Is that YOUR button, MIke?

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 18, 2016, 10:08:02 AM
I use to buy that magazine, but was put off by its newspaper format and the non glossy cover.

I think the content more than made up for that, though.

Quote from: hugohernandez on December 18, 2016, 10:08:02 AM
Is that YOUR button, MIke?

I'd like to have one, but they're scarce and always sell for more than I'm willing to pay. The last one sold for $35.

Don't forget the Topps Ugly Buttons with artwork by Norman Saunders and Wally Wood. I only have 14 of the 24. Here's an old scan of mine so the images look a bit skewed.

(http://oi64.tinypic.com/30tmfxe.jpg)

Here's a link to an old thread I made about them. The pics don't show but the scan above shows them.

http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=23453.msg380961#msg380961 (http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=23453.msg380961#msg380961)

Great set, HH!

Quote from: Mike Scott on December 23, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Great set, HH!

Thanks, Mike!

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 25, 2008, 06:56:59 PMThere was a big find of gumball stuff, and I bought anything Monster they had.

From what years was the gumball stuff? Who made the find, and where? Is stock from the warehouse find still being sold out of certain early vendors' inventory?

???

I'm still confused with respect to the history of the Elwar buttons. When were they first issued? How big were the originals? How were they sold? Loose in stores? Was there a display? Were they attached to the display? Were these same buttons then subsequently sold through Captain Company ads in Warren publications? Pictures of these originals?

I understand the designs were then adapted for sales in vending machines. How big were the vending machine variants? When were they sold? Pictures of the ones sold in vending machines?

???

I only have time to do pics, right now. Click on each pic for more info.

http://buttonmuseum.org/search/node/elwar (http://buttonmuseum.org/search/node/elwar)

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 11:38:11 AM
I only have time to do pics, right now. Click on each pic for more info.

http://buttonmuseum.org/search/node/elwar (http://buttonmuseum.org/search/node/elwar)

Hey Mike, you have 1970's as the release date. I bought mine in the mid 60's.

JP

Issue dates are one of the things that confuse me as well.

:-\

Quote from: horrorhunter on December 05, 2015, 01:14:00 AM
Here's a picture of my big Elwars (again):

(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/horrorhunter/MarxWeirdOhsElwarButtons_zpsrpp3pdzw.jpg)

All 6 are clearly the more common type. The other five I picked up off eBay a couple of years ago, but that Creature button is the one I got as a kid in the mid '60s. There's nothing hazy about the button, or roughly when I got it. The memory is a little unclear about the exact year and what the packaging looked like, and the exact store it was purchased from, but I'm pretty sure it was on a blister card and it was 39 cents and it was from a store like Kresge or Woolworth. I know it wasn't bought as late as the '70s because I wasn't buying the monster stuff then except for comics and mags (I was into Hot Wheels and other types of toys by that time). It had to have been purchased in the mid '60s, no later than '67, and probably around '65.

I bought my large Elwar Creature button in the mid '60s. Of course it's always possible I could be mistaken but my kidhood memory says mid '60s.

Quote from: Hepcat on February 09, 2017, 12:24:32 PM
Issue dates are one of the things that confuse me as well.

:-\

I'm also puzzled about why many people seem to think they weren't available until the '70s. Could it be that they were re-released in the '70s and it's assumed that it was the first release?  :-\

Here's a link to a Hake's listing for the large Creature button which claims 1965:

https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/71813/THE-CREATURE-FROM-THE-BLACK-LAGOON-UNIVERSAL-FILM-MONSTER-SCARCEST-BUTTON (https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/71813/THE-CREATURE-FROM-THE-BLACK-LAGOON-UNIVERSAL-FILM-MONSTER-SCARCEST-BUTTON)

Several other various Google listings name mid 1960s as the time when the large Elwars were sold.

Where did you guys buy your large Elwar buttons in the '60s? The first ads in Capt. Co. for them was in the early '70s.

There was a '60s version of the large buttons (with different art and no text on the curl), but I've never seen where they were for sale, anywhere.

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 02:10:02 PM
Where did you guys buy your large Elwar buttons in the '60s? The first ads in Capt. Co. for them was in the early '70s.

There was a '60s version of the large buttons (with different art and no text on the curl), but I've never seen where they were for sale, anywhere.

That's another curious thing about this- there were no Captain Company ads for them that early. You would think that Jim Warren wouldn't pass up a chance to sell them through the mags. For whatever reason it seems they were sold in stores in the '60s but not through Captain Company. I remember buying that Creature button in a retail outlet like Kresge or Woolworth but I don't remember exactly which one. It seems like it was 39 cents and sold in a carded blister pack. Can't say for sure though.

If you Google the large Elwar Monster Buttons and sort through the clutter and confusion there are a number of instances where people list them as being from the mid '60s (like that Hake's link I posted above) or just the '60s in general. Unless a lot of folks are suffering from mass delusion there must be something to the mid '60s origin dates.

Could the 7/8" buttons sold in vending machines have possibly pre-dated the full colour 3 1/2" buttons?

???

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 09, 2017, 03:38:39 PM
It seems like it was 39 cents and sold in a carded blister pack.

I have a b/w photo of a carded large Elwar.

So, does yours have the Elwar c. info on the curl?

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 03:50:43 PM
I have a b/w photo of a carded large Elwar.

So, does yours have the Elwar c. info on the curl?

Yes, all 6 of mine are "*copyright symbol* Universal Pictures Co., Inc. Printed In USA, MFG by Elwar LTD NYC". No dates are listed.

Please post the pic of the carded large Elwar.

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 09, 2017, 04:05:58 PM
Yes, all 6 of mine are "*copyright symbol* Universal Pictures Co., Inc. Printed In USA, MFG by Elwar LTD NYC".

'60s it is, then! I'll edit my button posts.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

Now that I look at that button, it's the earlier prototype button, so that card may also be a prototype ad not the one you remember. Oh Elwar! Will you ever stop vexing us?

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
Now that I look at that button, it's the earlier prototype button, so that card may also be a prototype ad not the one you remember. Oh Elwar! Will you ever stop vexing us?

Yeah, that card is super cool but it doesn't ring any Monsterkid bells regarding the Creature button I purchased back then. Thanks for posting it!

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 04:18:52 PM
'60s it is, then! I'll edit my button posts.

Hopefully we'll find some good evidence at some point which would hold up in court.  :laugh:

To be honest all I've found are several accounts of different people remembering them being for sale in the '60s (including myself). The fact that there are no appropriate Captain Company ads from the '60s just throws more chaotic energy into the hellish abyss that this Elwar Thing has become.  :-\

I'm 100% sure I bought these in the mid 60's. By 1970, I had moved on (unfortunately) from the monster stuff. I bought these in either Woolworth's or Kresge's. I don't remember if they were loose or carded however.

JP

Quote from: Wolfman on February 09, 2017, 05:34:12 PM
I'm 100% sure I bought these in the mid 60's.

Thanks, WM!  :)

So does anyone remember buying the 7/8" variants from a vending machine?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/3053458355_17df92020d_o.jpg)

For how much? Were the buttons loose in the vending machine or enclosed in their own individual capsule? For that matter does anyone remember these little buttons being sold anywhere else such as the local convenience store?

???

Quote from: Hepcat on February 10, 2017, 09:27:58 AM
So does anyone remember buying the 7/8" variants from a vending machine?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/3053458355_17df92020d_o.jpg)

For how much? Were the buttons loose in the vending machine or enclosed in their own individual capsule? For that matter does anyone remember these little buttons being sold anywhere else such as the local convenience store?

???

I don't remember buying any of the small ones as a kid. I bought my set and the display card from an eBay seller a few years ago.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b8/29/ab/b829abb2136535835814cd8a8d89efd0.jpg)

I can't say for sure but I'd be willing to bet that the ones sold through brick-and-mortar stores only showed up in gumball machines because of the size. Hopefully someone who remembers buying them back then will give us some info.

You would think we would know nearly all of this stuff after accumulating info on UMA for a few years but not so. The more we nail down as fact the more questions seem to crop up. I guess the mystery adds to the fun... sort of.  :-\

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 10, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
You would think we would know nearly all of this stuff after accumulating info on UMA for a few years but not so.

Unfortunately, you can't just go down to the hall of records and look up this kind of info. Much of what we know is from anecdotal evidence dependent on 40-50 year old memories.

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 10, 2017, 06:51:08 PM
Unfortunately, you can't just go down to the hall of records and look up this kind of info. Much of what we know is from anecdotal evidence dependent on 40-50 year old memories.

Very true.

The fact that most of the things we collect were widely considered junk items for kids just makes the info all the more obscure. For years nobody thought this stuff was worth researching or keeping records on except kids who were in no position to do so. By the time the stuff started attaining enough monetary value to make it seem "important" enough to compile info on so much time had gone by that much of the facts were lost due to many of the people responsible for these items passing away or surrendering their mental faculties to the ravages of time. Also, the very fact that they were originally cheap junk meant that makers often had little or no quality control so chaos ensued regarding manufacturing methods and quality which resulted in much randomness.

Our print collectibles like comics and monster mags are much better known because of the medium which supplied facts like dates and creators. The toys not so much. Toy packaging was usually discarded and even when it turns up it offers limited information. Gumball charms and the like are really in the dark much of the time regarding the history of such items.

Looks like we'll have many Monsterkid item mysteries for years to come, some forever.

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 10, 2017, 08:43:58 PM
Our print collectibles like comics and monster mags are much better known because of the medium which supplied facts like dates and creators. The toys not so much.

When doing my monster mags blog I was frustrated at not having a few dates and cover artist names, but there is like an encyclopedia of knowledge on that subject, compared to vintage toys!

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 10, 2017, 11:15:58 PM
We know much more about the Aurora models which are pretty well documented, but most cheap monster toys...forget it.

And the Aurora box artists are well known, but what about the Hasbro monster art and the SPP art and Castle Films boxes and many, many more. All lost to history!

"One of the human mind's integral characteristics is what psychologists call "closure" — our desire to find definite, clear answers to questions, and our corresponding discomfort with the unknown and the ambiguous."

Quote from: hugohernandez on November 22, 2015, 04:30:16 PM(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/huedez/media/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg.html)

Okay! I take it that the small buttons in the bottom row are the unlicenced knockoffs issued by Ray Ferry.

Are the buttons with the small print from the top row the original Elwar buttons from the mid-sixties? Are the buttons in the middle row then the ones sold in the seventies by Captain Company through ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine?

???

Quote from: Hepcat on February 11, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
Okay! I take it that the small buttons in the bottom row are the unlicenced knockoffs issued by Ray Ferry.

I think those were some ebay entrepreneur buttons, sold as a set.

Quote from: Hepcat on February 11, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
Are the buttons with the small print from the top row the original Elwar buttons from the mid-sixties? Are the buttons in the middle row then the ones sold in the seventies by Captain Company through ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine?

Correct and ditto.

Quote from: Hepcat on February 11, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
Are the buttons with the small print from the top row the original Elwar buttons from the mid-sixties? Are the buttons in the middle row then the ones sold in the seventies by Captain Company through ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine?

The Creature button on the second row is like the one I have that I remember buying in the '60s. Those buttons on the second row are the ones that we are unsure about if they first came out in the '60s or '70s. A lot of people remember buying them in the '60s (including me) but we have no hard evidence, just memories. The top row buttons I don't own or know anything about except what I've read on UMA.

The third row buttons look like fan-made ones. Fan-made buttons are all over eBay. People can make buttons from any photo and monster pinbacks are very popular.

Quote from: Hepcat on February 11, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
Okay! I take it that the small buttons in the bottom row are the unlicenced knockoffs issued by Ray Ferry.

Are the buttons with the small print from the top row the original Elwar buttons from the mid-sixties? Are the buttons in the middle row then the ones sold in the seventies by Captain Company through ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine?

???

The buttons in the middle row with the large print, are the ones I purchased in the mid 60's. I never owned the ones with the smaller print. Of this I am 100% certain.

JP

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 11, 2017, 06:10:25 PM
The Creature button on the second row is like the one I have that I remember buying in the '60s. Those buttons on the second row are the ones that we are unsure about if they first came out in the '60s or '70s. A lot of people remember buying them in the '60s (including me) but we have no hard evidence, just memories. The top row buttons I don't own or know anything about except what I've read on UMA.

The third row buttons look like fan-made ones. Fan-made buttons are all over eBay. People can make buttons from any photo and monster pinbacks are very popular.

Since I only owned the buttons in the 2nd row, and bought them in the mid 60's, that is when they were available. I can't speak of the top row, because I never owned them. They could have been early 60's or even late 60's/early 70's. I am only sure about the 2nd row. By '68 or '69, I was completely out of collecting monster stuff.

JP

Quote from: Wolfman on February 11, 2017, 10:23:13 PM
Since I only owned the buttons in the 2nd row, and bought them in the mid 60's, that is when they were available. I can't speak of the top row, because I never owned them. They could have been early 60's or even late 60's/early 70's. I am only sure about the 2nd row. By '68 or '69, I was completely out of collecting monster stuff.

JP

That's my situation pretty much. I bought the 2nd row Creature in the mid '60s. I never had the ones on the top row. By the time '68 rolled around I was still buying monster mags and comics but toywise I was buying Hot Wheels and G.I. Joes among other toys but no monster buttons or figures. A lot of people remember buying them in the '60s that I've found through Google searches.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgwfy.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgwfy)

might as well toss these in here too...
here is a photograph of the back of some of my "MPC" gumball charms...
reaper, franky, & wolfman.. no holes in the back of the heads - just circles where you would think the ring base would go for the Henal header card rings.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgwp6.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgwp6)

another "MPC" mystery

Quote from: Count Zero on February 12, 2017, 12:24:13 AM
another "MPC" mystery

That Elwar card isn't real. The real ones are like 4 inches.

Quote from: Count Zero on February 12, 2017, 12:24:13 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgwfy.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgwfy)

might as well toss these in here too...
here is a photograph of the back of some of my "MPC" gumball charms...
reaper, franky, & wolfman.. no holes in the back of the heads - just circles where you would think the ring base would go for the Henal header card rings.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgwp6.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgwp6)

another "MPC" mystery

Henal probably had the same manufacturer make the holeless charms for them that made the monster head rings but I have no idea who. The sculpts are really good, as good as the original MPC Pop-Top heads. Heck, maybe they actually got MPC to make them. Yep, you're right, more monster toy mystery. We're up to our necks in it.  ;D

?

i picked up that bag from another collector in a trade along with some of the loot that came with it. sorry i can't be of more help in that department.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgxp7.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgxp7)

(https://i.imgflip.com/1jgxqw.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1jgxqw)

sorry about the glare off the glass on these

as far as the cards go, they are legit
i have a ton of this gumball carp

Damn! That must be a tiny gumball machine!

I always wondered why they made those display cards so small. It looks like they would have wanted to fill the entire front of the gumball machine with the image to more effectively entice kids to throw in money.

Similarly, I have one of the original Vari-Vue UniMon/Casper Flicker Ring display cards that's tiny like that. It only measures 4" X 3" and it isn't even cardstock, just paper. I had to cut out a backing board and plastic bag to fit it just so it would be rigid enough to stand up on it's own. Of course, they just taped them to the inside front of the gumball machine but why make them so small? I guess they tried to cut corners on such cheap items but they kinda shot themselves in the foot by not making them as big as possible for the machine to attract attention and get more kid-money. Just another head-scratcher.  ???

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 12, 2017, 01:16:03 AM
Just another head-scratcher.  ???

I think you may have a skin condition.

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 12, 2017, 01:20:41 AM
I think you may have a skin condition.

Think so?

(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5c/5a/05/5c5a054eab4fcce8be24a106dade2a06.jpg)

Nahhh.  ;D

It's really not that noticeable.  :o

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 09, 2017, 04:18:52 PM
'60s it is, then! I'll edit my button posts.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/5599/h6aJBr.jpg)

"Dr-- Dracular???"

Quote from: YoungestMonsterKid on February 12, 2017, 06:16:38 PM
"Dr-- Dracular???"

;D

Quote from: Richard on November 24, 2008, 02:56:58 AMForry wore the large buttons in the Unimart Don Post Show in late 1965/1966

Also attached as promised is a hi-rez scan of Forry wearing the buttons at the Unimart show....

Quote from: Jim Bertges on November 26, 2008, 01:57:19 AMHere's another shot of Forry wearing those buttons.

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c346/JimBertges/Miscellaneous/scan0002-3.jpg)

Since the image Richard posted has disappeared, I'm wondering whether the picture Jim Bertges posted is from the same 1965/66 Unimart show.

:-\

Sorting through the info on the Elwar buttons posted previously in this thread is challenging given that many of the pictures are missing and most of the early posts presuppose some familiarity with these buttons.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2410_zpsbqioy7cw.jpg)

Nonetheless, to summarize the musings and info so far, the buttons in the top row appear to have been a preliminary production run by somebody or other (perhaps Elwar) in the mid-sixties. Forrest Ackerman can be seen wearing some of them in pictures from 1965-66.

No copyright information is provided on the edge of these buttons and they feature rectangular holes on the back:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/3055788394_a323ea73b5_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/3055788428_199329b2ed_o.jpg)

Unfortunately nobody has posted memories of buying these buttons back in the sixties.

The buttons on the second row with the large names are info-labelled Universal/Elwar on the edges. They have round as opposed to rectangular holes on the back.

Both Horrorhunter and Wolfman have posted remembrances of buying the info-labelled buttons in Woolworth or Kresge stores sometime in the 1965-69 period. These were also the buttons sold through Captain Company ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine beginning with issue #95 cover dated January 1973:

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/huedez/IMG_2436_zpsnmkweyzx.jpg)

The info-labelled buttons are the ones much more commonly found these days.

cl:)

That pretty much sums it up, other that to say that Elwar is thought to be Warren, as no other products (or other buttons) are know to exist made by that company.

Quote from: Hepcat on February 13, 2017, 11:34:58 AM
Both Horrorhunter and Wolfman have posted remembrances of buying the info-labelled buttons in Woolworth or Kresge sometime in the 1965-69 period. These were also the buttons sold through Captain Company ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine beginning with issue #95 cover dated January 1973:

Not only that but when I was researching this with a Google search I found several entries of people listing the info-labelled buttons as being available in the 1960s, especially the mid '60s. Here's one of them- a Hake's auction for a Creature button like the one I bought as a kid in the mid '60s which lists it as "c. 1965", link: https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/71813/THE-CREATURE-FROM-THE-BLACK-LAGOON-UNIVERSAL-FILM-MONSTER-SCARCEST-BUTTON (https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/71813/THE-CREATURE-FROM-THE-BLACK-LAGOON-UNIVERSAL-FILM-MONSTER-SCARCEST-BUTTON)

To further sum up, we're somewhat baffled as to why the buttons didn't show up in Captain Company ads in the mid '60s. Jim Warren was a helluva huckster and it seems very unlikely he wouldn't offer the buttons through his mail order branch if they were indeed sold in the mid '60s. On the other hand there seems to be a huge amount of "hearsay" evidence that they WERE sold in the mid '60s including my own personal memories of buying mine then. Trouble is we haven't been able to turn up any hard evidence to prove it. So, that's where we are. Maybe evidence will turn up sooner or later to substantiate these personal memories from various people that the large info-labelled Elwar UniMon buttons were in fact sold in the mid 1960s. *whew*

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 13, 2017, 11:46:42 AMThat pretty much sums it up, other that to say that Elwar is thought to be Warren, as no other products (or other buttons) are know to exist made by that company.

Yes. Could Elwar be a derivative of Warren Ltd? That theory was first advanced in this thread by Monster Bob:

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 03:52:43 PMI'm also thinking maybe all these buttons were made by Warren Publishing, later using the name "Elwar", which is probably somebody's cat.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 05:48:32 PMWarren definately made Munsters buttons in 1965, which are marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 26, 2008, 10:56:10 PMThe main reason I think Bob's theory makes a lot of sense is that nothing else turns up from Elwar  If they were an independent button company, you would think they would make more than just monster buttons.  Even if they were short lived, they'd try a broader product range than that. 

The fact that Warren made buttons that are similar to the small ones further advances it.

The theory makes a lot of sense given that the artwork on many of the buttons was based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963 or the Famous Monsters 1965 Yearbook published in 1964.

But!!! If these buttons were first produced in 1965-66, why did Warren wait until late 1972 to start flogging them through Captain Company ads in Famous Monsters of Filmland? Warren/Captain Company flogged everything else to monster-loving kids through such ads. Why did Warren somehow neglect to hawk its very own buttons in the magazine for over six years? That would have been very un-Warren like behaviour.

Secondly, these 3 1/2" buttons were being sold in stores during the late sixties. I can't think of any other Warren junk that was sold through stores other than the magazines. It was through Captain Company ads that Warren liked to sell stuff.

:-[

Quote from: horrorhunter on February 13, 2017, 02:17:56 PMTo further sum up, we're somewhat baffled as to why the buttons didn't show up in Captain Company ads in the mid '60s. Jim Warren was a helluva huckster and it seems very unlikely he wouldn't offer the buttons through his mail order branch if they were indeed sold in the mid '60s.

Precisely, especially if Warren was the actual publisher/producer of the buttons!

???

Confused yet? Me too!  :laugh:

Is it possible that they were advertised earlier? Did you look through every copy of FMOF from the 60's? There's not a snowballs chance in hell I got them in the 70's. I had moved on from collecting monster stuff by '68. So there.

JP

Quote from: Wolfman on February 13, 2017, 07:29:15 PM
Did you look through every copy of FMOF from the 60's?

Yup!

Quote from: Mike Scott on February 13, 2017, 07:31:58 PM
Yup!

Interesting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

JP

Quote from: Wolfman on February 13, 2017, 09:25:57 PM
Interesting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

Nope!

I moved all the "Spooky Surprise" posts to their new thread.

Quote from: Wolfman on February 13, 2017, 09:25:57 PMInteresting. It still doesn't change the fact I got mine in the mid 60's.

That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

:-\

Quote from: Hepcat on February 14, 2017, 10:52:20 AM
That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

:-\

You might have something there.  ;)

Quote from: Hepcat on February 14, 2017, 10:52:20 AM
That would seem to imply that Elwar was not a Warren subsidiary.

Or perhaps Warren wanted to dip its toe into the retail market with the Elwar buttons. To do that though Warren needed a distributor who could access wider sales channels than just newsstands. But the distributor demanded exclusive rights to distribute the buttons retail with not even Captain Company being allowed to solicit by mail order. So Warren didn't begin advertising the Elwar buttons in Famous Monsters magazine until after the distribution agreement had expired.

:-\

Hey Hep, we might have to put you on this case as a top-notch sleuth.

JP

I have to be a sleuth on these buttons because I wasn't even aware of their existence until I joined UMA.

;)

I think the answer to why there are two different variants of the 3 1/2" buttons may be found in Richard's musings which I've quoted below:

Quote from: Richard on November 23, 2008, 10:10:31 PMHere is ONE possibility (and why my monster collector friend is interested in buying). I only present it for discussion coz I have NO IDEA!

Perhaps, artwork was created for buttons. Prototypes were made for a trade show to drum up business (the crude-ness of the lettering seems to hint at a prototype. "Here, put the name of the monster on it before you make up samples so Universal's happy"). Now the samples are shown at a trade show. And interest is strong...but for a small button that can be dispensed in gumball machines. No problem, we can do that sez Elwar. But the artwork is too busy on a 3/4 inch button and the tin litho begs for minimal color. They zoom in on the heads and cut out much of the artwork in making the dot-pattern tin litho small buttons. And the lettering is done again, only neater, on an additional separation in the printing.

All is well, product is being made~maybe even sold.

Then, maybe, someone decides that they really like the full color artwork idea on a larger button (maybe there is even a request for them by a jobber/distributor and Elwar sees a chance to make more money with their Universal license). They go back to the artwork but it's been lettered on...MAYBE EVEN LOST. Horrors, they say! We need to redo the artwork again. So this time, it turns out better,neater,more pleasing...and...the neat,nice lettering from the small buttons is reproduced on the large ones. These are sold happily ever after (Lugosi Jr., not withstanding).

Then, at some sad period of time, Elwar goes out of business and someone gets to take the sample buttons with original artwork home with them. To give to the kids, give to the neighbors,fill a small box at an estate sale, WIND UP ON eBay!

And now, 2008, no one remembers how this all came to be.

Quote from: Richard on November 24, 2008, 02:56:58 AMWhy different artwork? ...Elwar would not have gone through all the upfront expenses, again, to produce new variations (improved artwork and lettering) for production run number 2 and on (Hey, these were for kids, not adult collectors...nothing wrong with the 1st variations in a kid's mind). So why did they do just that?

I'm thinking this...
These were 1st run buttons. Forget Lugosi Jr. lawsuit vs Universal, it has nothing to do with this. The artwork was then used on the header card and simplified for the small tin litho buttons.
The separations, film, printing plate production were all completed for large button production.
Now here is where I speculate~

But the printer (a) went out of business and nothing could be retrieved by Elwar. Time to start over again (b) The artwork,film,plates,everything were destroyed in a fire? (could happen~just ask Bob Burns about Fantastic Monsters of the Films #8 and all his stills and stuff to be used in that issue-lost forever in flame). Again, start over again to fill orders (c) Angry printer holding up all the production materials and work because of some disagreement (over money, time, ?) In the disagreement, the production materials would be held hostage and Elwar would be forced to obtain new artwork, separations, film, printing plates and go from there (with the common examples we have today).

How does any of this sound?

Quote from: Richard on November 24, 2008, 11:40:40 PMBut the biggest question mark is...why create New art, New separations, etch NEW printing plates...JUST to place info on the button curl? This would be an expensive re-do, even in the 60s. As was mentioned, the kids would not have cared which artwork was eventually used. And these were for children! Elwar was trying to make money for itself, not create future collectables that looked a bit nicer/neater in their second coming. The font used was it's own separation, so it was the same on the small tin litho buttons and the common large ones. An "info" separation could have been added to the original artwork in production without the additional expenses of starting COMPLETELY over.

I do agree/believe that these non-marked large buttons came first.
And I really think the ability to produce them, with this artwork, was lost very early on.
The reason I cling to the "lost everything/burned everything/stole everything at the printers" theory is because it would force Elwar to start over again to fulfill orders. Added expenses for them but they had no choice as there were orders to fill. So, bring in another artist to create new artwork to resemble the first (only his artistic style, by luck, turned out a finer, more pleasing image). The line font (The Mummy, The Phantom, etc) separations already exist for the small buttons so no need to recreate these again. Also, the 1st button backs are different from the 2nd button backs. This would indicate a change in the jobber that Elwar used.

I think the most likely explanation would have been a contract dispute with respect to the price the printer/manufacturer required from Elwar for a full-fledged production run of the 3 1/2" buttons. These would have had just over sixteen times the surface area of the 7/8" buttons which would therefore have required that much more ink to print. Moreover a full four colour print job would have been required for the large buttons while the small buttons needed only a two colour print job. Furthermore the 3 1/2" buttons would also have been thicker thus requiring more than sixteen times the metal. The large buttons were also to be placed on cards requiring their own printing. Worse yet affixing the buttons to the cards probably required a manual work operation! Finally the print run for the large buttons was likely smaller meaning less economies of scale.

So how much pricier would/should the large buttons have been compared to the small ones? Ten times more expensive? Tough to say, but whatever the printer/manufacturer wanted Elwar was likely reluctant to pay.

:)

Quote from: Toy Ranch on November 25, 2008, 08:55:12 AMDoes anyone know when the small buttons actually came out?  I've heard people say they saw them in machines into the early 80's.  The card says Elwar Ltd NY NY and no zip code.

Quote from: Richard on November 25, 2008, 10:17:15 AMBobby, I can only confirm one small Elwar button (The Wolf Man) that I remember where I was when I got it. Wolf Man was my favorite monster at the time~that's why I remember it. There were an assortment of gumball machines in the entrance of a local drug store in the Twin Cities. I put my coin in and out dropped the Wolf Man button. I think it was in one of those small cheap, flimsy 'eggs' that held the prizes in the machines. This would have been anywhere from 1964 to 1966. I am positive of having it in my collection in the 60s. I still have it.  I also have a small Frankenstein (the other of the only 2 small Elwar buttons I've kept from my childhood). The others are lost to time and have been replaced.

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 25, 2008, 06:56:59 PMI remember the small ones on display. I saw them in 1c machines with that header-for sure. One time in the middle of Florida at a tourist stop- about 1967 I'd say. Once near Lacaster, Pa., once in Ohio- both about 1968 or so. Then again in Florida, probably 1971-ish.  The buttons would be mixed in with 1c gumballs, but you'd have to spend a quarter to get a button- there were never many buttoms in the machine, compared to the gumballs.

I know in about 1982 or so I bought hundreds of these buttons (small) and probably 30 header cards, all old 1960s stock. There was a big find of gumball stuff, and I bought anything Monster they had. I used to sell sets at Toy Shows and eventually Toy Shop.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2cctgdl.jpg)

So therefore it would appear that the 7/8" buttons were sold in vending machines from 1965(?) or so until sometime in the 1980's. These small buttons were available either as teaser prizes in penny gumball machines or in the little plastic capsules at higher prices  (ever higher) over the next fifteen plus years.

cl:)

And the most important sentence is . . .

"And now, 2008 (and 17), no one remembers how this all came to be."

Sad, but true!

It still surprises me that so few UMAers actually remember getting the small buttons from vending machines or buying the large buttons on cards in retail stores back in the sixties.

:-\

I recently and finally, completed my collection of the small Elwar buttons. Don't know why it took me so long. But anyway I took a pic of them so, I thought I'd post it. Here they are with an original vending machine card...

(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab97/monolith_06/monolith_06006/IMG_9237_zpsetvs3an2.jpg) (http://s853.photobucket.com/user/monolith_06/media/monolith_06006/IMG_9237_zpsetvs3an2.jpg.html)

And here are my large Elwar's. The Dracula and the Frankenstein I've had since the late '60's or early '70's. They were originally my older brothers. I think I've asked him before where he got them but he doesn't remember. The others I collected slowly, one at a time over the years. I love the artwork and colors on them.

(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab97/monolith_06/monolith_06006/IMG_9282_zpst3j9dxmv.jpg) (http://s853.photobucket.com/user/monolith_06/media/monolith_06006/IMG_9282_zpst3j9dxmv.jpg.html)

Most impressive ELWAR collections! Love the original card!

Do you also have the small set that looks like the big set?

Quote from: Monolith on June 08, 2017, 01:20:36 PMI recently and finally, completed my collection of the small Elwar buttons.... Here they are with an original vending machine card.

Quote from: Monolith on June 08, 2017, 01:24:49 PMAnd here are my large Elwar's.

Can you post a picture of the small ones beside the large ones for comparison's sake?

???

Quote from: Mike Scott on June 08, 2017, 02:40:28 PM
Most impressive ELWAR collections! Love the original card!

Do you also have the small set that looks like the big set?

Thanks. Nope-don't have any of the small set that looks like the big set.

Quote from: Hepcat on June 08, 2017, 03:14:28 PM
Can you post a picture of the small ones beside the large ones for comparison's sake?

???

They're packed away in boxes right now. I'll have to find them and dig them out again.

Quote from: Hepcat on June 08, 2017, 03:14:28 PM
Can you post a picture of the small ones beside the large ones for comparison's sake?

The small ones are 7/8" and the large are 3.5".

Quote from: Monolith on June 08, 2017, 05:32:42 PM
Thanks. Nope-don't have any of the small set that looks like the big set.

A few years ago, there was a bunch of them on ebay, but you just don't see them anymore.

Here's an image upon which I've stumbled which adds to the mysteries surrounding these buttons:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g434/Balticprince/Monster_Buttons.jpg)

That's the vending machine card paired with buttons featuring the same artwork and lettering as that found on Monster Candy:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g434/Balticprince/Monster_Candy.webp)

Has anyone else seen these buttons? My suspicion is that these buttons might be a fan made issue.

:-\

Quote from: Hepcat on February 12, 2023, 10:14:52 PM
My suspicion is that these buttons might be a fan made issue.

That's exactly what they are.

Can you fill us in on any of the details?

???

Quote from: Hepcat on February 13, 2023, 01:33:36 AM
Can you fill us in on any of the details?

No legitimate novelty company is going to swipe art from some other company's product. eBay is full of fan made buttons! They use Aurora monster art, Mani-Yack art, anything you can think of.

Definitely homemade. I could whip up an identical button pack in about an hour, if not less... but mine would probably be glow in the dark or prismatic or something, because I can never leave well enough alone!

Quote from: Monster Bob on November 26, 2008, 03:52:43 PMWarren made a set of Munsters buttons in 1965, and the art, style, and size strongly resembles these Elwar Monster buttons, but they are clearly marked WARREN PUBLISHING CO. on the rim.

Munsters? Are you sure you're not thinking of these Addams Family buttons issued by Warren in 1964?

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g434/Balticprince/Addams_Family_buttons.jpg)

???

Interesting

Were all the Elwar Famous Monster buttons available as first versions or only the Frankenstein?

???

Yes.  But Frank is the only one with a different background color.

Quote from: Dr.Terror on August 21, 2023, 11:31:34 AM
Yes.  But Frank is the only one with a different background color.

And the art is different on the older ones. I think the newer ones are a little more refined.

Here is the first version Frank.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjCq3bDb/received-1506002523516156.jpg)