http://skeptophilia.blogspot.com/2013/05/breaking-news-scientists-once-again.html?m=1 (http://skeptophilia.blogspot.com/2013/05/breaking-news-scientists-once-again.html?m=1)
You mean scientists have failed to discover what never existed? Shocking! ;D
Quote from: Scatter on May 11, 2013, 10:32:20 AM
You mean scientists have failed to discover what never existed? Shocking! ;D
Isn't the point of "Finding Bigfoot" to have a series where every week, our intrepid investigators fail to find what they're seeking?
http://www.businessinsider.com/brazilian-atlantis-granite-samples-2013-5 (http://www.businessinsider.com/brazilian-atlantis-granite-samples-2013-5)
I liked all the articles that showed the hunk of granite, or as I like to call it, the Turd of Atlantis.
Quote from: Haunted hearse on May 11, 2013, 12:06:02 PM
Isn't the point of "Finding Bigfoot" to have a series where every week, our intrepid investigators fail to find what they're seeking?
BIGFOOT IS REAL DAMMIT!!! ;D
My cousin has big feet........and he's real. :blank:
Quote from: Scatter on May 11, 2013, 02:40:04 PM
BIGFOOT IS REAL DAMMIT!!!
;D
Just to be clear, I never said what they were seeking wasn't real, just that they were unable to locate what they were seeking.
Quote from: Scatter on May 11, 2013, 10:32:20 AM
You mean scientists have failed to discover what never existed? Shocking! ;D
I'm not so sure that Atlantis did not exist. The city of Troy that Homer wrote about was considered a legend until Heinrich Schliemann found it in the 1870's. In 2012, German archeologists found an ancient Roman outpost and many searches into the Mediterranean have revealed sunken settlements.
I have read a few books on Atlantis, one being Atlantis: The Antediluvian World by Ignatius Donnelly in the early 90's and one of the things that struck me was Donnelly's commenting on words of similar sounds with the same meaning being spoken by peoples that probably never met (such as the peoples of South America, the Inuit of North America and the people of the Canary Islands). And not just one or two words, there were throughout the book a couple of hundred with many different peoples. Now, Donnelly did believe in the existance of Atlantis and many of his conclusions of "this can only have happened because Atlantis" I did think could have another explaination. But the similar words, to me, must have had an outside influence.
Oh, there are a plethora of underwater ruins. But Atlantis (which is never referenced before Plato wrote of it) was supposedly the size of Asia and Africa combined. Odd that nobody else had ever heard of the place.
No, Atlantis, if it ever did exist, might have been some little speck of dirt surrounding a volcano which eventually sank it, but it was nothing like Plato's account. That Atlantis never existed. Hell, the catastrophe that could destroy an island the size of Africa and Asia would have doomed every other living thing on the planet along with it.
Plato's account states that Atlantis sank in a "single day and night of misfortune". Now, assuming that it was a full 24 hour period, and assuming that Atlantis rose a maximum of 5000 feet above sea level, that means it sank at an average rate of 3.5 feet per minute. I get into a cold pool faster than that and the ripples I create do not reach the opposite end of the pool.
Quote from: Zackuth on May 12, 2013, 07:49:07 PM
Plato's account states that Atlantis sank in a "single day and night of misfortune". Now, assuming that it was a full 24 hour period, and assuming that Atlantis rose a maximum of 5000 feet above sea level, that means it sank at an average rate of 3.5 feet per minute. I get into a cold pool faster than that and the ripples I create do not reach the opposite end of the pool.
Dude...........we're not talking about sinking a rubber ducky in your tub. Plato described a CONTINENT larger than ASIA sinking in 24 hours. The forces exerted by that massive a tectonic event would have caused worldwide catastrophe. Volcanic cataclysm, mega-tsunamis, little stuff like that.
Yes, Scatter, plus the fact that there is the Mid-Atlantic Ridge in the center of the Atlantic Ocean and there would be no room for a continent there in the middle of a sea floor spreading zone. That is usually where Atlantis is placed, right ?
I read a book once, can't recall the authors, but it stated with humor that people did not have television back in the classical days of Greece and Rome so they told tales to amuse themselves. Atlantis is one of these. I don't doubt that a city was destroyed somewhere in the Mediterranean Sea by tectonic activity.
The thing about Atlantis is, what record of tales exist of this place, prior to Plato mentioning it? My understanding was Plato was attempting an allegory, to present an example of what can happen to a country if it get's too high handed. Places like Troy come from stories that were handed down, and finally written down in an epic poem, I think Plato created Atlantis out of whole cloth, to tell a good story.
You are wise in your generation, Haunted Hearse.
Quote from: Scatter on May 13, 2013, 12:19:51 AMDude...........we're not talking about sinking a rubber ducky in your tub. Plato described a CONTINENT larger than ASIA sinking in 24 hours. The forces exerted by that massive a tectonic event would have caused worldwide catastrophe. Volcanic cataclysm, mega-tsunamis, little stuff like that.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe Zackuth is larger than the continent of Asia, but didn't mention it because he's embarrassed by his size? Have some sensitivity...jerk. :angel:
Quote from: Count_Zirock on May 13, 2013, 09:18:37 PM
Did it ever occur to you that maybe Zackuth is larger than the continent of Asia, but didn't mention it because he's embarrassed by his size? Have some sensitivity...jerk. :angel:
He wouldn't be the first guy to be embarrased by his size. :P
Quote from: Count_Zirock on May 13, 2013, 09:18:37 PM
Did it ever occur to you that maybe Zackuth is larger than the continent of Asia, but didn't mention it because he's embarrassed by his size? Have some sensitivity...jerk. :angel:
Hey hey hey--I'm down to 20 tons!! I left Asia's weight class years ago!!! ;D
I'm carrying your excess landslide Zack!!
I don't know if Atlantis ever existed, but I do believe it did. There have been many things, both man made and natural, that have been considered a myth and later discovered to be real. Ancient sailors reported sighting the kraken on their voyages and the karken was a myth for the longest time. Now science has proven that giant squids do exist. The coelacanth was supposed to have been extinct and everyone believed that except the south Africans who were catching the fish in their nets. For years there were some who didn't believe that Pontus Pilate even existed until eveidence was found he did.
http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2013/02/10-lost-cities-and-mythical-civilisations-of-the-ancient-world/ (http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2013/02/10-lost-cities-and-mythical-civilisations-of-the-ancient-world/)
I'm one of those who will believe until proven it didn't exist.
What we know.
1. Cocaine, Nicotine and other new world drugs have been found in Egyptian Mummies 3000 years old.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2375/whats-up-with-the-cocaine-mummies (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2375/whats-up-with-the-cocaine-mummies)
http://www.phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html (http://www.phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html)
http://www.viewzone.com/atlantis.html (http://www.viewzone.com/atlantis.html)
Of course we haven't "Found" atlantis. We're standing on it. The Phoenicians, and later the Carthaginians hid their trade routes well, up to including sinking ships trying to follow them. With the rise of Rome, they didn't want Rome getting that trade route, either, and they told the lie about the continent sinking, and with no Phoenicians to follow the Romans accepted it as truth.
So Plato was talking about Phonecia, but called it Atlantis? Why would he do that? The Roman empire didn't come into existence until long after Plato died.
The Phoenicians were the first people to mention Atlantis. Plato was reporting what he had heard from Phoenician mariners. Everyone knew where Phoenicia was, but the Phoenicians were the best navigators on earth at the time. I believe they reached the new world, sailing down the African Coast- And Thor Heyerdahl proved it was possible- And traded with the natives, bringing back the Cocaine, Nicotine, etc.- as well as reports of Atlantis. But when Rome rose, LONG after the Phoenicians of Mainland Asia Minor were overrun by Babylon, Carthage, a Phoenician Colony was Rome's arch-rival in the Punic Wars- Hannibal, War Elephants over the Alps and all that- The Carthaginians knew that they were losing and concocted the story to keep Rome from Reaching the new world.
Its not unheard of- The Arabs kept Europe from trying to sail around Africa for years by claiming all sorts of silly stuff.
So the Phonecians felt the need to keep a long destroyed empire a secret? Good thing he did, or some evil ancient scientists might have searched the destroyed empire which vanished without a trace, and used the technology to create Robby the Robot and an ID monster that would have destroyed life as it was then known.
No, I am saying that the Phoenicians were trading here, and the tales of Atlantis were embellished Sailor's tales told about the ancestors of the Maya and the Toltecs and Olmecs and when they couldn't come back without being followed by Rome, they made up the story.
Atlantis is North America.
Dr. Madd, you may have something there!!
Atlantis (in Greek, Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, "island of Atlas") is a legendary island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, written about 360 BC. According to Plato, Atlantis was a naval power lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BC. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean "in a single day and night of misfortune".
So what I'm now understanding is that the Phoneicans came up with the idea of a mighty nation that fell in 9,000 B.C. while attacking Athens as a way of keeping the Americas hidden. Not sure how that works, but I'll take your word for it.
Quote from: Dr. Madd on May 20, 2013, 11:28:04 PMBut when Rome rose, LONG after the Phoenicians of Mainland Asia Minor were overrun by Babylon....
Actually Phoenicia was where present day Lebanon is. Asia Minor is present day Turkey.
However North and South America combined do indeed fit the description of a continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean about as large as Asia and Africa combined. While the Americas aren't quite big enough, neither the Carthagines nor Plato knew precisely how big either Asia or Africa were. Moreover, they didn't know how large the great ocean, i.e. the Pacific, was either. All they knew was that the Americas were very far away by their own standards. And melting of polar ice caps between Ice Ages could put much low lying land along the Eastern seaboard and on the Arctic coast underwater. So, yes, perhaps the Carthagines and Plato were indeed describing the Americas.
Very interesting indeed. Besides, they did name Atlantic City after Atlantis, did they not?
:-\
Quote from: WikipediaUntil the discovery of the New World scholars believed that Atlantis was either a metaphor for teaching philosophy, or just attributed the story to Plato without connecting the island with a real location. When Columbus returned from his voyage to the west historians began identifying the Americas with Atlantis. The first was Francisco López de Gómara, who in 1552 thought that what Columbus had discovered was the Atlantic Island of Plato.
In 1556 Agustín de Zárate stated that the Americas was Atlantis which at one time began from the straits of Gibraltar and extended westwards to include North and South America[verification needed] and that it was as a result of Plato that the new continent was discovered. He also said it had all the attributes of the continent described by Plato yet at the same time mentioned that the ancient peoples crossed over by a route from the island of Atlantis. Zarate also mentions that the 9,000 "years" of Plato were 9,000 "months" (750 years).
This was also repeated and clarified by historian Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa in 1572 in his "History of the Incas", who by calculation of longitude stated that Atlantis must have stretched from within two leagues of the strait of Gibraltar westwards to include "all the rest of the land from the mouth of the Marañon (Amazon River) and Brazil to the South Sea, which is what they now call America." He thought the sunken part to be now in the Atlantic Ocean but that it was from this sunken part that the original Indians had come to populate Peru via one continuous land mass. He says that South America was also known by the name of the Isla Atlanticus.
It first appeared as the Atlantic Island (Insula Atlantica) on a map of the New World by cartographer Sebastian Münster in 1540 and again on the map titled Atlantis Insula by Nicolas Sanson and son (1669) which identified both North and South America as "Atlantis Insula", the eastern part of the Atlantic Ocean as "Oceanus Atlanticus" and the western part of the Atlantic Ocean plus the Pacific Ocean as "Atlanticum Pelagus". This edition was further embellished with features from the Atlantis legend by his son Guillaume Sanson including the names of the ten kings of Atlantis with Atlas' portion being in Mexico. Sanson's map supposedly showed what the earth looked like 200,000 years before there were any humans on it.
Francis Bacon and Alexander von Humboldt also identified America with Atlantis; Janus Joannes Bircherod said in 1663 orbe novo non novo ("the New World is not new").
Here's another good article:
Atlantis as the Americas 8)
Quote from: WikipediaUntil the discovery of the New World scholars believed that Atlantis was either a metaphor for teaching philosophy, or just attributed the story to Plato without connecting the island with a real location.
Nonetheless, Plato was a great geologist as well as everything else since he was the first to expound upon the theory of continental drift.
:)
I had a college class on debunking this kind of nonsense.
It's worth noting that the actual anecdote of Plato's clearly makes Atlantis out to be a made up city and the purpose of the story was just to say how great the Athenians were.
Quote from: YoungestMonsterKid on June 28, 2023, 10:44:39 PMI had a college class on debunking this kind of nonsense.
Atlantis, Continental Drift or both?
???
Quote from: YoungestMonsterKid on June 28, 2023, 10:44:39 PM...the purpose of the story was just to say how great the Athenians were.
Well that part anyway should be easy to debunk.
;D