Elwar Button Mystery

[Richard]

There is a listing from the latest Hakes/Geppi's auction catalog (found on page 351) about the large Elwar Dracula button. It's also online at ww.hakes.com.

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=196&ItemNo=75583

Read the description for the Dracula button. What's wrong with this listing? Let's get some thoughts on this.

Best,
Richard

[Toy Ranch]

I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version.  








***Edit to link this thread with new information***

http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.0

[Richard]

I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version. 

That is correct. Hake's is very confused here. So that 'revision' version (clearly based on the style of art on the SMALL Elwar button)...WHAT is it's story?

[Toy Ranch]

I suppose they could have the story right about the changed image due to Bela Jr, but no clue.  I've seen one other pic of that variation before, and it might have been the one they are showing.  I don't recall where I saw it.  Very curious indeed.  Since that is the same as the small button, I think the story that it came later is probably accurate.  I was going to call them on Monday about it.

[michblk]

I was looking at that too.  The Dracula button they are selling is the more common one, and the one they are comparing it to is the much, much rarer version. 

Awww man, I thought I had the rare one for a second.

BK

[Richard]

I suppose they could have the story right about the changed image due to Bela Jr, but no clue.  I've seen one other pic of that variation before, and it might have been the one they are showing.  I don't recall where I saw it.  Very curious indeed.  Since that is the same as the small button, I think the story that it came later is probably accurate.  I was going to call them on Monday about it.

I hope you get a response from them. I wrote an email but got none. The Lugosi thing is nearly impossible (for an explanation for this variation) for a number of reasons.

Check out this "past" auction.

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?AuctionItemID=43704

That's why I said that Hake's is confused. They can't be experts in everything (or anything, I suppose) but they should have sources to check with/confirm before they publish descriptions as truth. If they are just making up stories, it's no different/safer than eBay (without the buyers fee). They would better serve by just describing the item and not be inadvertently misleading.

[raycastile]

I didn't even know there were two versions of the Dracula.  I need to check mine to see what I've got.  Maybe I have the almighty super-rare three-handed version.

[Monster Bob]

Has the smaller one been proven to be vintage? It looks like someone just altered the 6 foot Dracula poster, fliipped it and shrunk it on a button. I don't ever recall seeing one of these smaller 'altered art' ones back in the day. Richard/Bobby, do you?

[Richard]

I didn't even know there were two versions of the Dracula.  I need to check mine to see what I've got.  Maybe I have the almighty super-rare three-handed version.

Doubt it. Maybe, but doubt it, Ray. Unless you also have the super-super-super rare 2nd version small button artwork that your three handed version is based on.

But to get back on track, has anyone ever seen this 2-hand large version before? I'm looking for any info.

[Toy Ranch]

Just to clarify...

This is the standard large Elwar button, and the one that Hake's is offering at auction.



This is the alternate version they are talking about as being the common one.



The photos are different sizes, but the buttons are the same size.  They are both 3 3/8".  This is the set of 6 they sold earlier this year, which included the alternate version.



This is the small Elwar button that was sold in the 70's.  It is 3/4" in diameter.



As to whether the one they sold in September is authentic, no telling...  but Hake's sells more pinbacks than anyone and while their story here is mixed up a bit, I think with as many buttons as they handle a fake/new button wouldn't slip through on them.

[Mike Scott]

It looks like someone just altered the 6 foot Dracula poster, fliipped it and shrunk it on a button.

It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

[Monster Bob]

Don't be so sure of that, Bobby! (re: slipping one through)

[Richard]

Don't be so sure of that, Bobby! (re: slipping one through)

I agree with this, Monster Bob. But I think this Dracula in question is authentic. I'm troubled by Hake's story and hope they talk to Bobby about it.

It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

The artwork style is similar (what Elwar was trying convey) but it doesn't seem to be the exact same artwork (I mean, from the same orginal source). The Creature might be a poor example because he is almost the same on the large and small button. Dracula, with his left hand raised and in the picture, along with his right  (on the small button) is the most dissimilar. 

As to whether the one they sold in September is authentic, no telling...  but Hake's sells more pinbacks than anyone and while their story here is mixed up a bit, I think with as many buttons as they handle a fake/new button wouldn't slip through on them.

I think they could be fooled. IMHO, I don't think they sold a 'fake' button here but don't know for sure. I don't understand why they had to make up a story about it. I don't know how they do business. Do people who consign items with them, give them a background on the treasure and they print it without verification? Where did the Lugosi Jr. story come from in relation to these buttons? One purchased the common "ol' one hand" large Elwar Dracula if you got it in a store in 1965 (I know), if you got it from the FM/Captain Company in the 70s (I know), or purchased it off of eBay in 2003 (I know). I've never seen this 'revision' version before. Also, the large Elwar Dracula is not that rare.
(Hake's lists the button as rare~if you look at their description of 'rare' in the definition contents section, they tell you that 'rare' is "We've seen 5 examples or less").
If they do indeed sell lots of buttons, they must have seen more than 5 examples of the common Elwar Dracula (I have 4 of them in a drawer right now and would sure part with one for a hundred!). Now, if they revise their description and call the "ol' 2 hand" large Elwar Dracula as rare, we have no argument. But where did it come from???

[Toy Ranch]

Do you have an extra Elwar large size Wolf Man you'd part with for $100???

[raycastile]

I thought I had two Dracula buttons, but I just checked and I only have one.  It's the common one-handed version.  But I did discover something looking at my three Phantom buttons.  One is different from the other two.  I thought for a second that I had another "rarity."  But on closer inspection, I realized it was a repro.  How did a repro sneak in with my other genuine buttons?  It's kind of like the nerd whose always trying to hang out with the cool kids.  Ah well, I'll let him stay.  But if I can own a repro for years and not realize it, even after seeing it side-by-side with the real thing numerous times, I'm sure a fake can slip passed Hakes now and then.