Author Topic: Monsters fading from collective memory  (Read 1319 times)

Hepcat

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2019, 01:53:27 PM »
Count me among those that absolutely hate that song(Imagine). For starters, it's just not very artistic. It's got a simple melody with even simpler lyrics.

I don't mind the tune. I find it quite pleasant.

Honestly, if an elementary school teacher assigned her class to write an essay entitled "How I'd fix the world," I imagine it'd read similar to Lennon's song.

Very, very true. The lyrics are insipid - which of course may be par for the course when it comes to pop music. The problem arises in that they purport to be meaningful when they're just vapid and sophomoric.

Simply because they're popular entertainers and thus have a wide following, rock stars, movie stars and people in the entertainment business in general seem to think that they have meaningful insights to offer when it comes to the political and otherwise important issues of the day. That they may have no education/training outside their very narrow niche doesn't seem to deter them from assuming that their pronouncements must be somehow "important".

When it comes to rock stars, movie stars, professional athletes, etc, my considered reaction is "Oh shut up and play. I'm not paying good money for your worldview or any other half-baked opinions outside of your narrow (and actually trivial) area of expertise." How any intelligent person could possibly take the pronouncements of these pop stars seriously is beyond me.

 ::)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 09:20:16 AM by Hepcat »
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Mike Scott

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2019, 02:34:26 PM »
Honestly, if an elementary school teacher assigned her class to write an essay entitled "How I'd fix the world," I imagine it'd read similar to Lennon's song.

Well then, surly that happened, more than once. So, where are all those hit songs?
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Hepcat

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2019, 03:30:29 PM »
Honestly, if an elementary school teacher assigned her class to write an essay entitled "How I'd fix the world," I imagine it'd read similar to Lennon's song.

Hmmmmm. On second thought that may be exactly why the song was thought by so many to be "meaningful". Consider the target market for pop music back in the seventies.

 ;D
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Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 08:31:53 PM »
I don't mind the tune. I find it quite pleasant.

Very, very true. The lyrics are insipid - which of course may be par for the course when it comes to pop music. The problem arises in that they purport to be meaningful when they're just vapid and sophomoric.

Simply because they're popular entertainers and thus have a wide following, rock stars, movie stars and people in the entertainment business in general seem to think that they have meaningful insights to offer when it comes to the political and otherwise important issues of the day. That they may have no education/training outside their very narrow niche doesn't seem to deter them from assuming that their pronouncements must be somehow "important".

 ::)
You really should be listening to instrumentals. We live in a democracy (kinda), everyone's opinion makes it work. Maybe youre referring to your, rather bland, taste in music. I definitely think lyrics matter. Just because some people don't agree with Lennon's world view doesn't invalidate it. Many people trash "Imagine" because it doesn't agree with their political views or because it trashes religion (fine with me). I'm not a Beatles fan (except the White Album) and I'm not a big Lennon fan (except the brilliant "Mother" lp), so I'm not sticking up for my "heartthrobs". Lyrics would be an irritant, if they were vapid like pre-Beatles 60s music.

the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 02:42:05 PM »
Quote
Simply because they're popular entertainers and thus have a wide following, rock stars, movie stars and people in the entertainment business in general seem to think that they have meaningful insights to offer when it comes to the political and otherwise important issues of the day. That they may have no education/training outside their very narrow niche doesn't seem to deter them from assuming that their pronouncements must be somehow "important".

I think a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that celebrities live lives wholly detached from the real world. Their existence is one where they have millions of fans hanging on every word they say, non stop media  coverage for everything they do, while getting paid outrageous amounts of money because of their ability to entertain us. It's no wonder they think their opinions matter. As a society, we treat them as if they do.
Quote
When it comes to rock stars, movie stars, professional athletes, etc, my considered reaction is "Shut up and play. I'm not paying good money for your worldview or any other half-baked opinions outside of your narrow (and actually trivial) area of expertise." How any intelligent person could possibly take the pronouncements of these pop stars seriously is beyond me.

I once became embroiled in a heated political debate on the Stephen King Message Forums where I held a minority opinion. One of the people with whom I was debating seriously used as an argument that "even Stephen King agrees with me," as if King, by virtue of being a popular novelist, is somehow more knowledgeable about politics than I am. This just feeds into my first point. Celebrities think their opinions matter because to millions of their adoring fans, they do.
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the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2019, 02:54:31 PM »

Quote
Well then, surly that happened, more than once. So, where are all those hit songs?

They probably don't know how to put them to music ;D

Seriously, I don't know if I possess the requisite expertise to determine how or why certain songs actually become hits and why others don't.  If I were going to fathom a guess in this particular instance (as unsolicited as it may be) I'd say it's because John Lennon was already a known commodity, a member of a band that became a global sensation, someone who already had a huge following that would guarantee any song he produces would be well received.


If "Imagine" had been recorded by a no-name artist, I doubt it would be held in such high esteem. I personally don't think anyone would have gotten famous on the merits of that song alone.

It's kind of like when Stephen King became successful, he became curious if he was just that good or if there was any luck at play. So he created his alter ego, Richard Bachman, and wrote several novels under that name. Despite being written by the best-selling author on earth, let's say they weren't flying off the shelves. And the only difference between Stephen King's novels and Richard Bachman's was the name printed on the front cover. Once it was discovered that King and Bachman were one in the same, all those Bachman books rocketed to the best-seller chart.
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Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 03:26:09 PM »
 I think the fuss over "Imagine" is usually a political issue. Conservatives hate his world view, liberals embrace it. There are far worse songs out there to single out, even in Lennon' s arsenal. Why not pick on really sh*tty lyrics like "I Want to Hold Your Hand" or "She Loves You (Yeah, Yeah, Yeah)"? They're not political. I feel the same way about redneck music...cant stand it or its "values".
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 03:29:33 PM by Mord »

Hepcat

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2019, 11:09:18 PM »
You really should be listening to instrumentals.


Here are three really good ones I can recommend:







We live in a democracy (kinda)....


Actually if I'm right about your locale we both do, no kindas about it.

...everyone's opinion makes it work.


It sounds to me as if you're talking about freedom of speech. Democracy per se is simply majority rule and doesn't itself guarantee any of the rights such as freedom of speech that we take for granted. These must be protected from the vicissitudes of popular opinion by something like a Constitution which sets out limitations on government powers.

Maybe youre referring to your, rather bland, taste in music.


Given that my taste in music extends from the top forty hits of the late fifties to certain present day selections and crosses multiple genres, it's much broader and in that respect much less bland than your own.

...I'm not a Beatles fan (except the White Album)....


And that's precisely a case in point. The White Album is the only Beatles' album that I really don't like.  Which of us has the broader taste in the Beatles' catalogue of music therefore? And for whatever reason the broadness of my musical taste seems to annoy you. This I don't understand.

Just because some people don't agree with Lennon's world view doesn't invalidate it.


On that point anyway we agree.

Many people trash "Imagine" because it doesn't agree with their political views....


I just find it annoying when a rock star thinks he's a learned scholar or someone with particular insight just because he's sold a lot of records. "Stop being such a windbag John and sing me a song. It said 'concert' not 'political rally' on the ticket I bought."

Many people trash "Imagine" because ... it trashes religion (fine with me).


Fine with me too. One of the few things that interest me even less than religion though is Lennon's views on religion. Like I say, he was just a rock star.

 ;)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 11:25:59 PM by Hepcat »
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Hepcat

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2019, 11:32:51 PM »
I think the fuss over "Imagine" is usually a political issue.

Precisely.

Why not pick on really sh*tty lyrics like "I Want to Hold Your Hand" or "She Loves You (Yeah, Yeah, Yeah)"? They're not political.

You've answered your own question right there. It's because they're not political.

I feel the same way about redneck music...cant stand it or its "values".

Huh? What's redneck music? And how can music (without lyrics) have values? Can you provide examples?

In general I've always thought that only sentient beings can have "values".

 ???
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Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 12:16:36 AM »
Yeez, you over-intellectualise everything.  I think you live in Canada, you guys have a decent leader. As for Democracy being rule by majority...you're absolutely right. We had 3 million more people voting for the candidate that lost. Explain that. I want my songwriters to write about the world they live in. This "shut up and play" bullsh*t is just noise from people who don't like the message. Tough sh*t...go listen to your complacent easy listening. Wait...why are we criticising John f*cking Lennon when Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, Kanje West, are still alive and making crappy music we could really be taking apart. I think musicians have a much more expansive world view. They travel all over the world and are more worldly than most people. I can understand why Mars A666 said what he did about Lennon. He is a punker
 (like myself). I reacted cavalierly to Lennon's death, also. Punks have always had a disdain for the Beatles. The Clash famously proclaimed "no Elvis, Beatles, or the Rolling Stones" on their first single. It was a knee- jerk reaction that I now regret. I was just reacting to his latest albums. I missed the angry Lennon. I demand social commentary from my singers.  I'm not going to listen to another sappy, sugary love song. Sorry that my writing is haphazard, but I'm drained. Let's just say our musical tastes are not compatible. I like lyrics.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 12:48:08 AM by Mord »

Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 12:31:33 AM »
 Btw, my definition of redneck music is the old "pick-up trucks, beer, and loathing" associated mainly with country music. I'm not playing into your "gotcha" semantics. Music carries the same values as the person singing and writing. You like Lightfoot, I prefer Dylan. Only one of them is a Nobel laureate.

Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2019, 02:18:26 AM »
I think the main point of the song is to Imagine life without want or pain or fear. Nothing more and nothing less. He's not promoting Communism or implying you can obtain utopia through the censorship of ideas. He would be one of the last people to support censorship.
Absolutely! The people who have tried to demean the song are the same people that try to pull books out of schools and libraries. Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, etc. seem to piss them off as well. "Just write your books and songs, but make sure they don't say anything of substance". There are so many things to thank the Beatles for. Rock and roll was on life support until the British invasion.  The Kinks ,the Who, the Stones etc broke the doors down as soon as the Beatles loosened the locks.

Hepcat

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2019, 11:01:01 AM »
Yeez, you over-intellectualise everything.

I wouldn't be prompted to intellectualize anything in this case if you hadn't made a completely out-of-the-blue remark about my taste in music being "bland".

Meanwhile you run off in a dozen different directions and touch upon multifold unrelated topics within a single paragraph any of which could be subjects of their own thread. What are you trying to do, overwhelm my capacity to respond?

So therefore I'll comment on them individually at my leisure. I'll say only this right now:

I can understand why Mars A666 said what he did about Lennon.

Yet you don't seem to understand his disgust for Lennon's "spoiled rock-star syndrome", a sentiment of his with which I specifically agreed in my first post.

He is a punker  (like myself).

I give Marsattacks full credit though for having pretty broad taste in music overall. He's not prone to sneering at music that may be "before his time".

Later....

 cl:)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:08:08 AM by Hepcat »
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Mord

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2019, 01:10:15 PM »
 I am shocked that you gave me the  top hat emogie. I am never talking to you again, ruffian. Don't even try to apologise, I'm not having any of it.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 01:12:41 PM by Mord »

Mike Scott

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Re: Monsters fading from collective memory
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2019, 10:51:06 PM »
I am shocked that you gave me the  top hat emogie.

Don't you recognize "Coffin Joe"?
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