Elwar Button Mystery

[Richard]

All the large Elwar buttons I currently own or have ever owned have round holes where the pin goes in the back.  The "unknown" Mummy up there has rectangular holes. 

I have noticed that sometimes the original art gets lost or damaged and a subsequent run of an item might be made using a copy of an original, rather than the original art.  Not sure how long the buttons were made, but it's possible that Elwar had a second run, which could account for the Mummy...  and possibly the Drac variations. 

Or they could be fake.

I, too, thought about a second run (that's why my friend thought about a foreign country-based run~ without the Universal/Elwar made in USA markings)

I'd REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see more than one example of these (in my decades of collecting). Then I would like the Elwar second run theory better.

As it is, I keep going back to fan-based. But then, Mike Scott shows that small button card/large unknown artwork comparison and Elwar comes back into the picture.
Mike, can you compare the Mummy that I posted with the card image...like you did with Dracula. I've lost my small button Elwar card so can't compare them here.
Thanks!

[Richard]

Your Mummy looks compatible with my Phantom.

I forgot, Ray!
Check the holes that the pin comes through on the back of the unknown Phantom button. On my unknown Mummy button, they are rectangular but on the regular Elwar large buttons, they are circular (like Bobby said)

[Mike Scott]

Mike, can you compare the Mummy that I posted with the card image...

I put the button image over the card (at 50%) and you can see all the lines match up.

[Richard]

Hoo-boy!
More info is coming from my contact person! I will post findings as soon as I can. There is additional info to consider, please be patient.
Best,
Richard

[Richard]

Here's my report, finally.

From what can be found/known, it seems that these strange variation buttons are 1st issue and not fan based. The image has a dot pattern (when magnified) that only a commercial printing press could do for the button. Mike Scott has already shown that the images on these large rare examples match the artwork on the cards for the small tin litho buttons.
Here is part of an email I received. I wanted feedback on where the images came from...



Okay, so to sum up my hypothesis based on all of the evidence in the prior emails -

Elwar FRANKENSTEIN:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - art based on the Famous Monsters 1965 Yearbook, released in 1964

Elwar DRACULA:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - art based on Lowell Toy Mfg. Corp. 6 foot poster artwork (fangs, pointed nails, etc.) released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

Elwar WOLFMAN, CREATURE & MUMMY:
Small 7/8 inch pinbacks/Header card - art based on the Famous Monsters Speak LP released in 1963
Large 3 1/2 inch buttons - same as above

Elwar PHANTOM:
Small 7/8 inch pinback/Header card - only possible item I could find is Famous Monsters #3, which came out in 1959
Large 3 1/2 inch button - same as above

Forry wore the large buttons in the Unimart Don Post Show in late 1965/1966

Also attached as promised is a hi-rez scan of Forry wearing the buttons at the Unimart show - sorry the quality isn't better



Me (Richard) back again. The hi-rez scan of FJA shows him wearing these strange variation buttons in 1965 (NOT the common versions we all know and bought). On his right side is (from the top) Wolf Man, then Dracula (like the Hake's  variation button offering), then the Mummy (exactly the same as mine). On his left side is an "Astronut" button, then an unknown Lugosi photo Drac button, then a Creature button (which, again, is the image of the small tin litho Elwar and has the different lettering)

Now, questions~

Why was FJA wearing these? He many times got things sent/donated to him. Did James Warren get prototype Elwar buttons (which he wound up handling in Captain Company) and send them to his editor to wear and promote? I think they are samples/prototypes because they lack all the lettering on the edge (Universal, Elwar, made in USA, etc)

Why aren't there more of these variations around? We know Elwar had art made, had separations, film, and printing plates made, and produced at least one each of 4 monsters (FJA is wearing 'em in 1965). This is expensive to do and a company would need to produce many more than 1 of each to make any profit. Are there more out there? Check your Elwars, folks.

Why different artwork? These aren't Sideshow Collectables so Elwar would not have gone through all the upfront expenses, again, to produce new variations (improved artwork and lettering) for production run number 2 and on (Hey, these were for kids, not adult collectors...nothing wrong with the 1st variations in a kid's mind). So why did they do just that?

I'm thinking this...
These were 1st run buttons. Forget Lugosi Jr. lawsuit vs Universal, it has nothing to do with this. The artwork was then used on the header card and simplified for the small tin litho buttons.
The separations, film, printing plate production were all completed for large button production.
Now here is where I speculate~


But the printer (a) went out of business and nothing could be retrieved by Elwar. Time to start over again (b) The artwork,film,plates,everything were destroyed in a fire? (could happen~just ask Bob Burns about Fantastic Monsters of the Films #8 and all his stills and stuff to be used in that issue-lost forever in flame). Again, start over again to fill orders (c) Angry printer holding up all the production materials and work because of some disagreement (over money, time, ?) In the disagreement, the production materials would be held hostage and Elwar would be forced to obtain new artwork, separations, film, printing plates and go from there (with the common examples we have today).

How does any of this sound?
I hope more examples show up.
Until I know more about this and SEE more examples of the variation buttons, I'm going to believe FJA wore the Mummy button I know own. 

Sorry to be so long winded~
That's all for now, folks
Best,
Richard

[raycastile]

Here is my Phantom button.  Yes, it has rectangular holes.

[Toy Ranch]

Thank you, Richard.  That photo certainly provides provenance for the alternate version Drac button.  The forum automatically resizes photos so they don't get too big.  If you want a larger image of the Forry photo, go directly to the link.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg

[Richard]

Here is my Phantom button.  Yes, it has rectangular holes.

Wow, Ray!
Yep! The back of your Phantom button is dead-on correct in style & with the rectangular holes (identical to my Mummy example). The front image and lettering are different in keeping with this 1st series button mystery also.
THANK YOU for posting this!
Best,
Richard

[Richard]

Thank you, Richard.  That photo certainly provides provenance for the alternate version Drac button.  The forum automatically resizes photos so they don't get too big.  If you want a larger image of the Forry photo, go directly to the link.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/mnroo/ElwarFJA1.jpg

Thanks, Bobby!
The FJA picture (that my contact person sent) blew me away when I saw it. I need to find the FM issue that has Forry at this event to see if there any are additional pics/examples.
Best,
Richard

[raycastile]

The artwork on my big Phantom button matches the vending machine card for the little buttons.  It is obvious when you compare the locks of hair on his forehead.  My button is obviously different from the standard version, but it perfectly matches the card artwork.

[The Phantom Creep]

Now THIS is the kinda discussion I love on here. Keep going guys!!!

I checked all my buttons and sadly they are the "normal" versions.

That Lugosi button FJA is wearing could be from the Count Dracula fan club or society or whatever it was called. Or it could just be a fan made Lugosi button.

[Mike Scott]

I know one thing. I'm not passing by the ebay auctions of these buttons with my usual "nothing new here" attitude.

[Richard]

I guess the Dracula mystery button is going to remain a mystery at Hake's. We have all seen the previous completed auction at Hake's that sold the mystery Dracula button with 5 other common buttons. Their present ongoing auction is for a common large Elwar Dracula button... I THINK! I'm not sure if THEY know. 

This is a copy of the email I sent to Hake's auction house on 11/22/08, full of questions about the Dracula variation button they pictured(I know more about this now than I did then but I want to let everyone see what I wrote)

Hello,
First, thanks for your catalog! A lot of tempting items to bid on!
Now,
As to page 351 in the Auction catalog. You are presenting a 'fine' Elwar Dracula button at auction. I am completely confused about the description and story.
 
WHERE did you get this information and how did you verify it?
 
I am a collector of monster toys from the 60s and presently own 4 examples of this button (it's not really rare). But, I'm bothered by the 2nd button that you describe as the 'revision' to the first (The more stylized Dracula image with both hands present). I would contend that THAT is the rare and mystery piece. When these buttons were in the stores and when they were sold in Famous Monsters  magazine, the button was always the example to the left (that you are selling). The button on the right (that you claim is ? common ?), is one I have never seen. It is based on the style of the small Dracula Elwar button though. LOOK at the edge of it...DOES IT HAVE the Universal copyright & Elwar trade name on it?
 
If I were bidding on this, I would be MUCH MORE interested in that 2nd button! (Look at the 'hair horns'...they resemble the 6 foot Dracula poster image...which I can confirm as I have a couple of these too)
 
Again, PLEASE let me know how you came up with this auction description.
Thank you VERY MUCH for your time
Best regards to you and many thanks!
 
Richard Olson (a 55 year old monster toy collector)
Duluth, Minnesota

Now, today, this is the reply I got back

Richard,

We based the "rare" grading on the fact that we have never offered this button in our 41 years, only having offered the other version a few times in our history.  The button we are offering does bear the Universal/Elwar names on the curl. 

We based our description on the history of the Lugosi Estate and the copyright issues that arose during the 1960s, resulting in the removal of all Lugosi likenesses from Universal Dracula products.

Hope this helps.

Mike Bollinger
Hake's Americana & Collectibles

"Never offered this button in our 41 years?!" This guy is totally confused over what button he is auctioning! He goes on to say this rare button has the "Universal/Elwar names on the curl" He just doesn't get it. I'd like to talk to him in person but I doubt he would. Accuracy in item description at Hake's seems to be the same as let the buyer beware, IMHO.

And then the Lugosi nonsense. Hake's representative is just repeating copy. With no justification as to why this is stated as fact. I know the whole story/mess with Universal & Lugosi in the 60s but that resulted in products never offered, not removal & revision of monster toys and collectables that "made it through" (ie. Elwar buttons). As I've said before, if a seller fabricates tales for their wares, and if this info is depended on as accurate , then there is a measure of fraud. I thought I politely asked for information that would affect my bothering to bid at Hakes. I would have felt much better with a "we don't know". THAT would have been more accurate and honest. Maybe the 15% buyer's premium is for the creative writing. I'm sticking with eBay if this is how it is at Hake's. Of course, what's one customer to them.
 

If it were my company, trust in descriptions would be priority #1

Best,
Richard

[GAKENSTEIN]

I have two Phantoms -- one standard Elwar -- the other identical to Ray's.  I think the non-Elwars are first run Elwars.  Perhaps Universal got wind of these buttons and contacted Elwar and they worked out a deal.  So, they cleaned 'em up, used a better font, added copyright info and the rest is history.

[Toy Ranch]

There's one on eBay right now for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/Famous-Monsters-DRACULA-Lg-Pin-1965-ORIG-Universal_W0QQitemZ110307329231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110307329231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I sold one for $35
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300221232925

By the way, did you know those small ones came out in 1960?  PSA says they did
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190265661888

I've owned 5 Dracula buttons, but I'm down to 1.  All of them were just like the one Hake's is selling.