Elwar Button Mystery

[Monster Bob]

I think they could be fooled. IMHO, I don't think they sold a 'fake' button here but don't know for sure. I don't understand why they had to make up a story about it. I don't know how they do business. Do people who consign items with them, give them a background on the treasure and they print it without verification? Where did the Lugosi Jr. story come from in relation to these buttons? One purchased the common "ol' one hand" large Elwar Dracula if you got it in a store in 1965 (I know), if you got it from the FM/Captain Company in the 70s (I know), or purchased it off of eBay in 2003 (I know). I've never seen this 'revision' version before. Also, the large Elwar Dracula is not that rare.
(Hake's lists the button as rare~if you look at their description of 'rare' in the definition contents section, they tell you that 'rare' is "We've seen 5 examples or less").
If they do indeed sell lots of buttons, they must have seen more than 5 examples of the common Elwar Dracula (I have 4 of them in a drawer right now and would sure part with one for a hundred!). Now, if they revise their description and call the "ol' 2 hand" large Elwar Dracula as rare, we have no argument.

yeah...what he said...!  


 

But where did it come from???

Good question...remember though- buttons are real easy to make 'n' fake, and button kits were everywhere 20-30 years ago. You could easily buy kits to make buttons, we had one as kids. I'm sure you still can.

The 'devil horned' Dracula sure reminds me of that poster...yup.  





,

[Richard]

I thought I had two Dracula buttons, but I just checked and I only have one.  It's the common one-handed version.  But I did discover something looking at my three Phantom buttons.  One is different from the other two.  I thought for a second that I had another "rarity."  But on closer inspection, I realized it was a repro.  How did a repro sneak in with my other genuine buttons?  It's kind of like the nerd whose always trying to hang out with the cool kids.  Ah well, I'll let him stay.  But if I can own a repro for years and not realize it, even after seeing it side-by-side with the real thing numerous times, I'm sure a fake can slip passed Hakes now and then.

How do you know it's a repro, Ray? Is it the exact image on both? Same markings and button size? What gives it away?

[Monster Bob]

It's the same art on the small button card, except the head is cut out from the rest of the image.

One looks copied off the other, which looks copied off FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! (Button has flames behind the head)  which looks copied from the Paint By Number box, which is copied from the game box, which is copied from the Aurora box, etc. etc.   *whew*

Actually, the Creature art on the card and big button are not the same...look at the yellow highlights...the eyes...plus they have a different number of upper teeth.

The button card artwork is identical to the art on the 1c small tin buttons... they just photographed the art in B&W and added a backround color.

And check out the lettering between the large and small buttons (which would have been a seperate piece of art from the backround art- probably white letters painted on clear celluloid). Anyway, they appear to be identical (or at least VERY close).


-------

[raycastile]

How do you know it's a repro, Ray? Is it the exact image on both? Same markings and button size? What gives it away?

It does not have the Universal copyright information on the edge.  That is the big giveaway.  I don't know why I never noticed that before, since that is the first thing I check when I buy one of these buttons.  Also, the text font is smaller and a little different from the genuine buttons.  The character art has more contrast and a little less detail than the original, and it looks a tad smaller.

[Richard]

One looks copied off the other, which looks copied off FAMOUS MONSTERS SPEAK! (Button has flames behind the head)  which looks copied from the Paint By Number box, whch is copied from the game box, which is copied from ther Aurora box, etc. etc.   *whew*

Actually, the Creature art on the card and button are not the same...look at the yellow highlights...the eyes...plus they have a different number of upper teeth.

Good catch, Bob! I hadn't looked at the Creature that closely.

OK, MUCH of my reason for wringing my hands about this is that this Hake's auction (and the previous one) brought an old eBay purchase back to my attention. THAT'S why I need to know anything anyone knows about this. And the Hake's story flip-flop doesn't help matters any.

Back in, I believe, 1999 (Damn, I don't have any records to check) I won an auction on eBay for 2 Elwar buttons. I was thinking it was just one button but now think it could have been a pair. Anyway, they were dirt cheap so I didn't bother complaining after receiving the goods (too much time had passed). The large Mummy button was different. Side to side, it's a bit more "crude" than the real McCoy but well-enough done that I didn't notice right away. I puzzled about this for a while but decided perhaps it was a fan produced knock-off and took it as a lesson to be more observent of the auction pics.

Now, present day, I saw this Dracula example come up on Hake's auction site. What the heck Elwar is this, I wondered? Then I remembered the 'bogus' Mummy button I picked up and pulled out all my Elwar buttons.

I wrote/spoke with a long time collector who I hoped would have some info. He had also never seen this 'revision' Dracula before and thought it to be a fake in the earlier Hake's sale of 6 buttons (even though, Hake's claims they don't sell fakes, that this is a Lugosi thing-lawsuit-mixup, anon, anon). Then I told him about my Mummy button, how I got it, etc. He gave it more thought. I sent him a high quality scan and he thinks it is not fan produced but, instead, machine (?layer sublimation or whatever that means?) produced based on magnifying the print pattern.

IT COULD VERY WELL be a fake, a fabulous fan produced tribute button and have nothing to do with Elwar. If one was going to cheat the buyer WHY CHANGE THE IMAGE? A fan produced tribute?...perhaps. That's what I thought, anyway, or else WHY don't more of these show up? But my monster collector friend doesn't think so (he leans toward a prototype/toy fair sample/...or...a foreign country pressing). He also wants to buy it and wants first crack at it if I wish to sell it.
That's why Hake's 'Lugosi' story doesn't make sense. Here is another EXACT SAME SIZE button with the COLOR artwork resembling the SMALL tin litho buttons. But it's the Mummy NOT Dracula. Lugosi Jr. won't sue Universal over Kharis.

This is all I know. I don't know to sell or not. I guess it depends on how much. I just wish I knew what these are all about!







***Note to repros of stuff....see how confused I am with this mess right now? And I know a thing or two about 60s monster toys! MARK your REPROS VERY WELL as repros because, as has been said, NO ONE is going to be able to sort out the real from the fake in the future! I guess some one else also mentioned that no one will care in the future so ... ***

[Richard]

It does not have the Universal copyright information on the edge.  That is the big giveaway.  I don't know why I never noticed that before, since that is the first thing I check when I buy one of these buttons.  Also, the text font is smaller and a little different from the genuine buttons.  The character art has more contrast and a little less detail than the original, and it looks a tad smaller.

Man, that sounds like the pattern going on here with the Dracula & Mummy, Ray! Except for size (should be identical)
Geez, if we could find one more of any of these. A Wolf Man example (because of the paw placement) would really help!
I'm still thinking fan-produced. ONLY because they are so scarce (or 'rare' as Hake's would say).
See if you can post a comparison pic of your Phantom buttons. When I hold the 2 Mummy examples face-to-face, the size of the buttons are identical~no variation.

[Monster Bob]

Richard

Your "other" large/color Mummy button appears to be the exact same art as the machine card and SMALL (1c) Mummy button. Is there any information on the rim? It appears to be the exact art, but more of it shown, as if shot off the original painting that the small button and card are taken from.

Is this Mummy and the horned Dracula from an earlier sixties, large Monster button set than the set we are familiar with?

[raycastile]

Your Mummy looks compatible with my Phantom.

[Mike Scott]

Anyway, they appear to be identical (or at least VERY close).

Very!

[raycastile]

I still think we just have some fakes in our collections, but then again, maybe we're onto something here.  I'll see if I can post some photos/scans later.

[Mike Scott]

I still think we just have some fakes in our collections

But where did they get the artwork to make the fakes?

[Richard]

Richard

Your "other" large/color Mummy button appears to be the exact same art as the machine card and SMALL (1c) Mummy button. Is there any information on the rim? It appears to be the exact art, but more of it shown, as if shot off the original painting that the small button and card are taken from.

Is this Mummy and the horned Dracula from an earlier sixties, large Monster button set than the set we are familiar with?

Bob, it has NO markings of any kind. As we all know, the actual Elwar reads: "c. Universal Pictures Co, Inc - printed in USA; mfg by Elwar, Ltd NYC"
Nothing is on the unknown button.
That's why I always leaned towards a fan-produced button.

Hake's stated that the Dracula has no markings ~I quote from the previous auction { "All have Universal Pictures Co. Inc. copyright on rim curl with exception of Dracula due to ongoing image trademark litigation at the time between Universal and Bela Lugosi's son."}.

I would reply, "That's a good piece of material and it comes with 2 pairs of pants"

When I re-read their latest auction listing 'item description' again, I just shake my head.

[Richard]

I still think we just have some fakes in our collections, but then again, maybe we're onto something here.  I'll see if I can post some photos/scans later.

But where did they get the artwork to make the fakes?

Here is ONE possibility (and why my monster collector friend is interested in buying). I only present it for discussion coz I have NO IDEA!

Perhaps, artwork was created for buttons. Prototypes were made for a trade show to drum up business (the crude-ness of the lettering seems to hint at a prototype. "Here, put the name of the monster on it before you make up samples so Universal's happy"). Now the samples are shown at a trade show. And interest is strong...but for a small button that can be dispensed in gumball machines. No problem, we can do that sez Elwar. But the artwork is too busy on a 3/4 inch button and the tin litho begs for minimal color. They zoom in on the heads and cut out much of the artwork in making the dot-pattern tin litho small buttons. And the lettering is done again, only neater, on an additional separation in the printing.

All is well, product is being made~maybe even sold.

Then, maybe, someone decides that they really like the full color artwork idea on a larger button (maybe there is even a request for them by a jobber/distributor and Elwar sees a chance to make more money with their Universal license). They go back to the artwork but it's been lettered on...MAYBE EVEN LOST. Horrors, they say! We need to redo the artwork again. So this time, it turns out better,neater,more pleasing...and...the neat,nice lettering from the small buttons is reproduced on the large ones. These are sold happily ever after (Lugosi Jr., not withstanding).

Then, at some sad period of time, Elwar goes out of business and someone gets to take the sample buttons with original artwork home with them. To give to the kids, give to the neighbors,fill a small box at an estate sale, WIND UP ON eBay!

And now, 2008, no one remembers how this all came to be.

Then, again, maybe it's fan produced. I can make a damn good looking button of almost anything I want. I can use Photoshop and have an excellent scanner..and a printer.

I can't do these buttons like they are.

The mystery continues...

[Toy Ranch]

All the large Elwar buttons I currently own or have ever owned have round holes where the pin goes in the back.  The "unknown" Mummy up there has rectangular holes. 

I have noticed that sometimes the original art gets lost or damaged and a subsequent run of an item might be made using a copy of an original, rather than the original art.  Not sure how long the buttons were made, but it's possible that Elwar had a second run, which could account for the Mummy...  and possibly the Drac variations. 

Or they could be fake.

[Toy Ranch]

I guess Richard and I had the same thought, lol  Posting at the same time.