Author Topic: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms  (Read 16844 times)

Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2022, 01:47:13 PM »
I think Glenn merch exposed him to more kids but from the people Ive asked they were aware of the difference. FM etc regulary made it a point to differentiate them.

Yes, but the people you've been inclined to ask would not have been representative of a cross sample of the population. They would have been present day Universal monster enthusiasts. And I agree with Devlin here:

I think we can all agree that we're not exactly typical American consumers!

I can tell you that as a kid I knew the difference between Hammer's Frankenstein and the previous Universal ones, but I certainly didn't know the difference between the Boris Karloff one and the Glenn Strange one. Here incidentally are the appearances as Frankenstein of the latter two actors:

Boris Karloff

Frankenstein (1931)
Bride of Frankenstein (1935)
Son of Frankenstein (1939)

Glenn Strange

House of Frankenstein (1944)
House of Dracula (1945)
Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein (1948)
The Colgate Comedy Hour (early 1950's)

Moreover while I bought Creepy and Eerie magazines, I never bought Famous Monsters of Filmland. Nor did I even know anyone who had any Famous Monsters issues. So while most kids back in the 1960's were well aware of the Aurora monster model kits, relatively few were "monster kids" to the extent of buying Famous Monsters of Filmland.

But speaking of Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine, here are the issues from the 1960's that have an identifiable Frankenstein pictured on the cover:

#21 - 1963



A Boris Karloff Frankenstein still.

My own copy of #42 - 1967



More like Glenn Strange.

#56 - 1969



Certainly Boris Karloff inspired.

 ededed
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 12:21:23 AM by Hepcat »
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aura of foreboding

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2022, 02:59:43 PM »
As a kid, I had no idea different actors played Frankenstein until I was like... 12 or 13.  Now, I didn't have FMOFL, but I did have access to the Crestwood Monster Library.  I was really only interested in the characters, though, not the actors.  So anything relating to that went in one ear and out the other.  Dracula was a different story, because there wasn't a lot of makeup.  But Frankenstein... yeah, no idea.

Dr.Terror

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2022, 03:20:57 PM »
I asked people who were fans and collectors IN the 60s.  East Coast, West Coast and in between. 

Lots of kids bought and read FM.  Thats why he's Uncle Forry.😉   

If anything kids probably didnt know who Glenn was.  Karloff IS Frankenstein the same way Lugosi is Dracula.  Thats never wavered since 1931.  Regardless who was currently in the role.   When Glenn first had Frank make-up applied he exclaimed "oh my god Im Boris Karloff".  Or something along those lines.

If kids knew anything it was Karloff was Frank even if they didnt know the image was Glenn they were looking at.





Glenns face was on a bunch of adverts for Frank 31.   



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aura of foreboding

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2022, 03:27:37 PM »
If kids knew anything it was Karloff was Frank even if they didnt know the image was Glenn they were looking at.

That makes sense.  And that really was my point.  Glenn Strange's image had so saturated the market, that most kids saw him as Frankenstein... even though many probably didn't know who he was or thought he was Karloff... if they knew or cared about the actors. 

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2022, 03:31:36 PM »
As a kid, I had no idea different actors played Frankenstein until I was like... 12 or 13.  Now, I didn't have FMOFL, but I did have access to the Crestwood Monster Library.  I was really only interested in the characters, though, not the actors.  So anything relating to that went in one ear and out the other.  Dracula was a different story, because there wasn't a lot of makeup.  But Frankenstein... yeah, no idea.

The Crestwood Frank book lists each one.  The information  was out there if you looked.

Hell I was so dumb as a kid I thought Eric Carr and Vinnie Vincent were Ace and Peters real names without make-up.   But I also didnt buy any magazine or read up on anything.    They were never on TV etc., like other bands during that period.

But there were kids that did know.   So the info is out there.  Was no different during any era of fandom.   Some kids knew, some didnt.   But not on purpose.     
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Dr.Terror

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2022, 03:35:18 PM »
That makes sense.  And that really was my point.  Glenn Strange's image had so saturated the market, that most kids saw him as Frankenstein... even though many probably didn't know who he was or thought he was Karloff... if they knew or cared about the actors.

Exactly.  If you cared about the actios you probably at least knew Karloff.  Otherwise Frank was Frank so long as it was the "Universal" look.    All kids knew how Frank should look. If not the actor.
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Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2022, 07:23:24 PM »
If anything kids probably didnt know who Glenn was.  Karloff IS Frankenstein the same way Lugosi is Dracula.  Thats never wavered since 1931.

If kids knew anything it was Karloff was Frank even if they didnt know the image was Glenn they were looking at.

Now that's where we're in full agreement. But you've also been implying that there was widespread awareness that another actor by the name of Glenn Strange played Frankenstein:

I think Glenn merch exposed him to more kids but from the people Ive asked they were aware of the difference. FM etc regulary made it a point to differentiate them.

I asked people who were fans and collectors IN the 60s.  East Coast, West Coast and in between.

That though is precisely where you're skewing your sample which is what's making you think that a significant minority of kids in the 1960's knew that Glenn Strange also played Frankenstein. Fans and collectors (of Famous Monsters of Filmland) weren't representative of the mass market in the 1960's. They were an enthusiastic but tiny minority.

Lots of kids bought and read FM.  Thats why he's Uncle Forry.😉

But Famous Monsters of Filmland wasn't a smashing newsstand success! Few kids bought it. The first year that even six issues were published was 1967! Yes, now it's highly prized by collectors because of the x-over appeal generated by sister Warren magazines Creepy, Eerie and Vampirella which were much bigger hits on newsstands.

Incidentally, I think the best 1960's rendition of Frankenstein (the Boris Karloff version) was the one James Bama did for the cover of the 1967 Bantam Frankenstein paperback:



 :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 09:36:49 PM by Hepcat »
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aura of foreboding

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2022, 09:09:00 PM »
The Crestwood Frank book lists each one.  The information  was out there if you looked.

Yeah.  Once I got to page 27 (end of the story), I stopped reading through and then just started looking at the pictures and scanning the text for anything of interest.  I'd stop and examine The Munsters picture and other interesting pictures of Universal's Frankenstein, but never read the whole thing as a kid.  (I actually disliked reading for pleasure.  I still do.  As a tween and teen, I found the back of the books far more interesting, as I was gaining information.)  The only Crestwood that I really read cover to cover as a kid was Dracula, but it was because I was obsessed.  haha 

Dr.Terror

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2022, 09:43:26 PM »
Now that's where we're in full agreement.

That though is precisely where you're skewing your sample which is what's making you think that a significant minority of kids in the 1960's knew that Glenn Strange also played Frankenstein. Fans and collectors (of Famous Monsters of Filmland) weren't representative of the mass market in the 1960's. They were an enthusiastic but tiny minority.

Huh??  Thats what we are talking about. Enthusiasts.    Not a kid that had one or 2 monster toys to go along with his gi joes because he thought they were Neat-o.     
And you are assuming all kids were like you and didnt know.   But Im telling you from my experiemce 60s "Monster Kids" knew the difference.  If they didnt than clearly that person was not a monster kid now were they?😉
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Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2022, 10:05:00 PM »
As a kid, I had no idea different actors played Frankenstein until I was like... 12 or 13.  Now, I didn't have FMOFL, but I did have access to the Crestwood Monster Library.  I was really only interested in the characters, though, not the actors.  So anything relating to that went in one ear and out the other.

The Crestwood Frank book lists each one.  The information  was out there if you looked.

Interesting this Crestwood Monster Library which came out after my time in 1977-87. Here's a good article on the Frankenstein book:

Crestwood Monster Series - Branded in the 80s

And here's what Horror Hound has to say:

Quote from: Crestwood House Retrospective - Horror Hound; 6 March 2020
The Crestwood House Monsters series (the orange monster books as I called them) had fifteen books. Ian Thorne (a pseudonym used by author Julian May) wrote the first twelve, William R. Sanford and Carl R. Green wrote the last three. The books were published between 1977 to 1987 and served as “Monsters 101,” for any young child who found the subject matter interesting. The monsters or movies covered were Dracula, Frankenstein, Godzilla, King Kong, and others.

I discovered these books at the library during a kindergarten trip, the two my library had were Creature from the Black Lagoon and The Deadly Mantis. The Godzilla one was always checked out, but I did get the chance to read it. I remember explicitly reading the Creature multiple times, due to me being home with the chickenpox in first grade. The day before I started to show signs of chickenpox, my grandmother took me to the library, and I checked out Creature, so I spent the entire time watching The Creature from the Black Lagoon and reading about it as well. However, there were some factual errors in the books; most fans know of the King Kong vs. Godzilla dual ending myth partially because of this book. Factual inaccuracies aside, the books were filled with excellent images and had plenty for the young reader to enjoy.

 cl:)
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Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2022, 10:10:40 PM »
I actually disliked reading for pleasure.  I still do.

Hah! I've been reading for pleasure all my life. Over my lifetime the amount of time I've spent watching movies and TV is probably only about 10% of the time I've spent reading (not including school work or office job related).

 ;D
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Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2022, 10:59:03 PM »
Huh??  Thats what we are talking about. Enthusiasts.

No. Your own statements were far more general:

If anything kids probably didnt know who Glenn was.

If kids knew anything it was Karloff was Frank even if they didnt know the image was Glenn they were looking at.

All kids knew how Frank should look. If not the actor.

It's too late to backtrack. Meanwhile I've been saying all along that the vast majority of the kids who built any of the Aurora monster models did not know the difference between the Frankensteins of Boris Karloff and Glenn Strange. And just like aura of foreboding I had no interest in the actors. Therefore the difference between the two Universal Frankensteins never crossed my mind.

Not a kid that had one or 2 monster toys to go along with his gi joes because he thought they were Neat-o.

Excuse me but let me disabuse you of the notion that most kids had enough money during the heyday of Aurora's monster model kits in 1961-67 to get every monster model, every issue of Creepy, Eerie and Famous Monsters of Filmland, every monster-related card set issued by Topps, Leaf, Fleer, Donruss or Philly Gum, the Marx, MPC and Palmer figures, the various Hasbro and Ideal board games, etc, etc.   

And you are assuming all kids were like you and didnt know.

You yourself explicitly stated the same. See above. But logical consistency is not your strong point.

But Im telling you from my experiemce 60s "Monster Kids" knew the difference.  If they didnt than clearly that person was not a monster kid now were they?😉

Interesting this newly hatched "monster kid" definition of yours.

Thinking about it, I'd probably define a monster kid as one who eagerly spent money on whatever monster related items he could afford in roughly the 1959-69 period. Let's see, I had a number of the 1959 You'll Die Laughing cards, a set of at least the first series of Spook Stories cards, a Hasbro monster themed Marble Maze, a Mad Mad Mad Scientist Laboratory, an SPP Creature-Wolfman wallet, three Aurora monster model kits, three Revell "Big Daddy" Roth model kits, a Brother Rat Fink T-Shirt Iron-On, a Rat Fink sweat shirt and a stack of a few dozen Creepy and Eerie magazines that I initially bought off newsstands before getting a subscription. I take it though that's not enough to meet your lofty standards. Sorry for not being rich enough as a kid.

 ::)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 12:22:13 PM by Hepcat »
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aura of foreboding

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2022, 11:48:14 PM »
Interesting this Crestwood Monster Library which came out after my time in 1977-87. Here's a good article on the Frankenstein book:

Crestwood Monster Series - Branded in the 80s



My favorite part of this is the fact the author had to backtrack his statement about who was playing the monster on the cover of the book!  Because, to be completely out front, I still have difficulty distinguishing certain pictures.  (I'm not a visual person.)  Like I know the facial features of each actor, but it takes me more seconds than it should to pinpoint whether it's Chaney or Lugosi under the makeup.  Pretty good about Karloff and Strange.  Honestly, I've always felt the Aurora kit looked more like Chaney than anyone else... Same with the Remco figure. 

Hah! I've been reading for pleasure all my life. Over my lifetime the amount of time I've spent watching movies and TV is probably only about 10% of the time I've spent reading (not including school work or office job related).

 ;D

I enjoy reading nonfiction now, monster magazines, and articles.  Still can't really get behind reading novels.  Maybe if they had pictures like my Crestwood books!  :D 

Dr.Terror

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2022, 04:35:06 AM »
Hepcat, you are the most difficult person to have a conversation with.   I dont even know why I bother interacting with you.   I cant find the exact word...but Annoying and irritating come to mind.

Ive gathered my opinions from over 20+ years spent in online groups etc discussing mosters with other fans.   Not the UMA bubble of 5 people.    And there are certain things that go without saying when discussing fandom that you just dont seem to understand because you are hooked on semantics.   "Oh well you said this...and worded it like this..."  Boy I tell ya....you must be fun at parties.


Go back to being Mr Poe's  hype man and PR agent or telling us about your drippy eye because nobody here cares.   I said it before and Ill say it again.   YOU are one of the main reasons the original members no longer post here.   So congratulate yourself.   I have Never, Ever thought of blocking anyone from seeing my posts but I think with you I need to make an exception.   You are just too annoying.   Spoiler.......people hate when you resurrect  10 years old posts.
   
I was referring to kids with a casual intetest who would only have one or 2 monster items.....by choice....because they were trendy or the hot thing to play with.

If you did not know who Karloff was you werent a monster kid.  Regardless when you grew  up.or how much money you did or did not have to buy stuff.         I didnt have all that you did growing up despite your assumptions.   I only had the large Remco Frank and  the minis.....but I still knew who Karloff was.   😉

« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 06:34:50 AM by Dr.Terror »
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Hepcat

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Re: Ben Cooper Shocking Phantoms
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2022, 01:24:18 PM »
....but Annoying and irritating come to mind.... because you are hooked on semantics.  "Oh well you said this...and worded it like this..."

Me I've never thought that logical consistency was too much to demand.

"Oh well you said this...and worded it like this..."  Boy I tell ya....you must be fun at parties.

Well you're right in a way. The alcohol that most people imbibe at parties doesn't exactly lend itself to coherent let alone logical discussion.

Go back to being Mr Poe's  hype man and PR agent or telling us about your drippy eye because nobody here cares.   I said it before and Ill say it again.   YOU are one of the main reasons the original members no longer post here.   So congratulate yourself.... Spoiler.......people hate when you resurrect 10 years old posts.

Now what's that you were saying about not assuming that everybody has just the same knowledge/preferences/reactions?

And you are assuming all kids were like you and didnt know.

Sorry. Everybody isn't just like you and a certain other member who left in a huff because people disagreed with his opinions of Hugh Hefner and Forrest Ackerman. Nor does everybody resort to personal attacks in response to any disagreement, in this case what monster kids from the 1960's might have known.

And incidentally why would any rational man object to resurrecting topics that are loaded with points of interest to the present posters of this board? Take this thread as a case in point. Since I bumped it up on December 7th, well over two pages of scintillating information laden discourse has resulted!

 ;D
 
If you did not know who Karloff was you werent a monster kid.... I only had the large Remco Frank and  the minis.....but I still knew who Karloff was.

Well yes, I agree that the typical monster kid would have heard of Boris Karloff - but you've moved the goal posts again! You were previously arguing that monster kids would have known of the difference between the Boris Karloff and Glenn Strange Frankensteins which was something with which I disagreed:

But Im telling you from my experiemce 60s "Monster Kids" knew the difference.  If they didnt than clearly that person was not a monster kid now were they?

I was arguing that there were many monster kids in the 1960's (which I define as those who liked Aurora monster models) who didn't know the difference between the Karloff and Strange Frankensteins.

Not a kid that had one or 2 monster toys to go along with his gi joes because he thought they were Neat-o.

Incidentally, on what basis other than they were neat-o should a kid back in the 1960's have liked monsters?

 ???
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 07:57:52 PM by Hepcat »
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